The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, and the first question, Dawn Bowden.

<p>Local Energy Generation Projects</p>

Dawn Bowden AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support local energy generation projects? OAQ(5)0082(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government has an established history of support in this area, which is currently continuing under the local energy service. As a result of our support, nine local energy schemes have been constructed. This includes Friends of Taff Bargoed in the Merthyr valley and four more currently being constructed.

Dawn Bowden AC: Excellent. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary for your response. And I’m aware that you did, in fact, visit Taff Bargoed at the end of October—the hydropower scheme there. And that Taff Bargoed is the latest phase of a project that’s transformed that site of three disused coalmines in the heart of a Valleys community and which has seen the launch of the income-generating hydro scheme. I’m sure you’ll agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the park is a fine example of the kind of transformation of an industrial site into a leisure and recreation centre, which has become both a haven for wildlife and a centre for community activities, and the latest initiative is a natural and positive progression. But, as part of the Welsh Government’s strategy on delivering clean energy, notwithstanding what you’ve just said about the four schemes that are in the pipeline, can I ask you how we can encourage even more communities to generate their own energy and learn from the excellent example of projects such as Taff Bargoed?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Taff Bargoed scheme is a really excellent example of local people coming together, making the most of opportunities that exist within their community, and our vision is to see far more communities and businesses using locally generated renewable energy, and earning an income in the process—I think that’s another thing to think about. I mentioned in my initial answer that we do support communities through the process of a local energy service. That provides development officer support, it provides funding, and it also provides access to specialist advice groups. So, one of the key benefits of community groups working with the local energy service is the access to capital funding the service offers. And we know from experience that groups can often struggle to raise funds for such schemes, so I think it’s really important that we continue to make sure that that funding is available here in Wales.

Russell George AC: Will the Cabinet Secretary confirm the status and weight to be given to policies in local development plans when her officials determine the acceptability of any local generation scheme, which, by virtue of its expected output, is now classed as a development of national significance?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’ll have to write to the Member with a note on that.

Mark Reckless AC: The Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee recently visited a community hydroelectric project in north Wales, and I followed up with Ofgem on the issue raised, that the costs of connection to the grid, where there isn’t sufficient capacity in the area already, have to generally be borne by the developer, whereas the approach taken in Scotland for large-scale renewables there was for the upgrade of the grid to be paid for by electricity users across the UK. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe the approach currently is fair to Wales or not?

Lesley Griffiths AC: This is something I’m having to look at. We need to make sure that there is enough capacity on the national grid. The First Minister met recently with the National Grid to discuss this, and it’s something, as I say, that we will be looking at going forward.

<p>Improving Flood Protection</p>

Hannah Blythyn AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to improve flood protection? OAQ(5)0080(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: We work with local authorities identifying communities at risk and building resilience through better forecasting, awareness raising and funding priority schemes. Twenty-three million pounds of this year’s £54 million programme is allocated directly to local authorities. We also collaborate on the coastal risk management programme, increasing our resilience to climate change.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government has continued to invest in flood and coastal risk management, spending over £50 million in this financial year on reducing risks and maintaining existing assets. This continued investment is welcome and is vital to ensuring that family homes and businesses are protected from flooding. Over a decade ago, the town of Mold in my constituency was devastated by flooding when the river Alyn burst its banks, and the area remains a flood risk today. A Mold flood alleviation scheme has been under construction for many years, but, to date, no agreement has been reached. Minister, can you assure my constituents that plans are still on track to implement the scheme, and that work between Flintshire County Council and the Welsh Government will continue on this matter?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I know my officials are still in discussions with Flintshire County Council, and I know that the local authority itself is reassessing and reviewing the cost. Because I think, over 10 years, obviously, the costs from the original prediction have increased significantly. So, I understand the local authority are working with a local consultant to review the modelling work and asset information.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The reality is, of course, that the budget for flood prevention has been cut. Now, given that there is additional capital funding to come to Wales in light of the autumn statement, will you make the strongest case possible for ensuring that that source is restored?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I have made the strongest case possible to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and you will find out next week if it’s been successful or not.

Nick Ramsay AC: Cabinet Secretary, given that, as Llyr Gruffydd said, resources are tight, and flood prevention protection schemes are, in terms of capital, very expensive, and revenue as well, do you think now would be a good time, with the agenda moving on to greater local authority collaboration, and pan-local authority developments, such as the south Wales metro, and city regions, to look at regionalising flood protection, rather than just leaving it with individual local authorities, to get them to work together more closely and to develop more cost-effective and sustainable schemes?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I suppose it’s important that local authorities work together if a flood scheme crosses borders of local authorities. I’m not sure that regionalisation would be particularly beneficial. However, we’re always encouraging local authorities to work much more collaboratively together, so, as I say, if they felt that it would be worthwhile, I’ve no objection to that at all.

Michelle Brown AC: Will the Minister make a statement on actions the Welsh Government is taking to support the Traveller community, please?

That’s the incorrect question. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: As the Cabinet Secretary will know, many of my constituents, not least those in Maesteg, were recently affected by the flash flooding. As we approach Christmas, many of them are out of their homes, with relatives, with family, their belongings have been taken away in skips, and their houses are drying out. Some of them could be out for some time.Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary for advice for one such constituent, caught in a dire predicament? Their home flooded thanks to the flash flooding running down the hillside and through theirs and other properties—nothing to do with river flooding, nothing to do with coastal inundation. Yet, their insurer has called their claim invalid, after their sodden belongings were taken away to the skip, because they failed to identify, when signing the policy, that their house was within 200m of a river. This was an oversight, and I wonder how many people are now caught out by this 200m rule, which now seems common to many policies. There aren’t, frankly, many places in my constituency, which are river valleys, that are not within 200m of some river or other. So, what advice could she give to my constituent, and would she raise this matter in future discussions with the British Insurance Brokers’ Association and with the Association of British Insurers? A catch-all clause of living within 200m of a river is a heck of a cop-out for the British insurance industry.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, it’s very concerning to hear of your constituents’ experience with that. And it’s very good that you’ve raised it here in the Chamber. I’d be very happy to write straight away to the British insurance brokers, raising that issue, and, obviously, I will share that information with you when I receive it.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from party spokespeople to the Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, this lunchtime, I co-sponsored a National Farmers Union briefing session, with Angela Burns, on the Welsh Government’s proposals for nitrate vulnerable zones. There are some very, very serious concerns regarding the consultation proposals, which could impose huge burdens on farmers and, as a result, force many out of business. Given the First Minister’s comments that it’s up to the Welsh Government now to decide which laws should be retained and which shouldn’t be retained following the UK’s decision to leave the European Union, could you explain why the Welsh Government has proceeded with this consultation to introduce nitrate vulnerable zones, which is as a result of a European directive?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Because we’re still in the European Union.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I need to say to the Cabinet Secretary that she has an opportunity here to look at these proposals once again given that we are now leaving the European Union. I appreciate that we need to maintain the quality of our natural environment and, for that reason, it is worrying, incidentally, that a regulatory impact assessment hasn’t been provided alongside the consultation document, because surely a regulatory impact assessment is crucial to demonstrate how these proposals will result in an improvement to our water quality and to our natural environment. Can you, therefore, explain to us why a regulatory impact assessment has not been issued alongside the Welsh Government’s proposals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I go back to your first question: implementation of the nitrates directive is a European obligation, and whilst we still are part of the EEC, and we’re going to be still part of the EEC for at least the next two and a half years, we are committed to comply with these obligations. I have to say that minimum standards were introduced for the storage of slurry over 25 years ago—25 years ago—and the assessments we’ve done show that around 65 per cent of farms do not meet these standards. My message has been to farmers, when they’ve raised this with me, is that for those already meeting existing storage standards, the cost of compliance with NVZ requirements would be minimal. To me, that’s rewarding good practice, and I think that’s really important. As I say, we’re out to consultation and there will be an RIA published in due course.

Paul Davies AC: Well, it is disappointing that an RIA hasn’t been published alongside the consultation document, and is it not the case that a regulatory impact assessment hasn’t been issued because there is simply not enough scientific evidence to support the Welsh Government’s plans? Not only is there not enough scientific evidence, but these proposals will actually cripple farmers across Wales and have a significant effect on the wider rural economy. And it seems to me that these proposals are simply a sledgehammer to actually crack a nut and, no doubt, the findings of the consultation will actually echo these concerns. So, in the circumstances, can you tell us why the Welsh Government has not adopted a voluntary approach on this matter, and, following the consultation, will you now take on board the views of farmers and, indeed, the agricultural industry and consider working with them by adopting voluntary measures instead?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don’t agree with the question that you asked me. I don’t want to pre-empt the consultation. I’m very happy to work with the industry. I mentioned in my previous answer to you how long these standards have been there, what our assessments have shown and that, for those already meeting existing storage standards, the requirement would be minimal. And I think that is really important and it’s really important that we recognise and reward good behaviour.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Minister, I want to talk about another European directive, but I just want to put on record that I’ve written to you asking you to adopt the voluntary approach on the NVZ directive as well. But what assessments have you made of the High Court ruling last month that DEFRA’s air quality plan under the air quality directive did not, in fact, comply?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Officials are looking very much at the court case that was undertaken and, obviously, came down against the UK Government. I haven’t got that information to hand at the moment, but I’m very happy to share it when I do have it.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, thank you, Minister. I think it is a very important court case and it’s one that might be against DEFRA but it’s actually a UK reporting responsibility under the air quality directive. So, it does affect us, and it overtook or ran concurrently with your own consultation on air quality, which closed on 6 December. In that consultation on air quality you said this:‘There is considerable uncertainty about the extent to which we will still be bound by our current EU obligations—though your response to Paul Davies sounds like you are bound by your current EU obligations—relating to air and noise pollution following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. Therefore, we are not yet in a position to state precisely what further action we propose to take forward in the second, third, fourth and fifth years of this Assembly.’Can I put it to you, Minister, that having had an estimate from the British Lung Foundation that air pollution in Wales is linked to over 1,300 early deaths—that’s the Welsh figure; we’ve heard UK figures before; that’s the Welsh figure—can you really be so laissez-faire in your response to tackling air pollution?

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, I am not laissez-faire at all, and it’s because of my concerns that so soon after I came into post I launched the consultation. We do have both European and national legislative frameworks in place in Wales. It does concern me greatly. We certainly have hotspots, if hotspots is the right word, of really poor air quality, which concerns me. You mentioned the consultation that closed on 6 December. Officials have already started analysing the responses, and I’ll be able to bring forward, obviously, more information when that’s complete.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, I hope that more information also includes your response to the High Court judgment, and also I hope that you can take into account the fast-moving public policy in this area. Five of the cities that I think you actually joined with in a regional network following Marrakech have signed up to the proposal of banning diesel transport from the cities. Often, diesel cars are seen as a particular problem, though in fact it’s diesel lorries and transport that creates most of the pollution. Jeremy Corbyn has suggested banning all fossil fuel cars; it might not be his most—. [Interruption.] All cars, in fact; yes, possibly. It might not be his most ridiculous suggestion, actually, because Copenhagen has already suggested that in 10 years. Paris is looking at it. Cars are banned on alternate days in many cities throughout the world. But, of course, the answer is not to attack private cars; the answer is to move to an electricity infrastructure. And the answer is to use the tools that we have here already in Wales—the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 to achieve those policy proposals. So, in response to what other cities are doing, how can Wales step up and really achieve that transition away from personal fossil fuel-driven transportation to that of electric vehicles and much more sustainable integrated public transport?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You’re absolutely right. The C40—the group of cities that you’re referring to—I met with several of the mayors when I was in Marrakech at COP22, and it was really interesting to hear about their plans to end the use of diesel cars, for instance, by 2025. Other countries are looking to do it also by 2030, 2035, and we have to keep pace, otherwise we’re going to look like dinosaurs. So, it’s really important that we do that. I’m having discussions with my colleague Ken Skates, Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, around sustainable transport. I think we need to set some targets, and I mentioned last week in the energy statement that we have to have a realistic target, but I’m very happy to look at that. I’m also very happy if any cities—. I suppose Cardiff, I think, have made some comments around Cardiff looking to do that also, so I’m very happy to have those discussions, but we really do need to ensure that we do keep at the fore of these announcements.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I think farmers and, indeed, small businesses in general will be very disappointed by the intransigent response that the environment secretary gave to Paul Davies’s question earlier on. The National Farmers Union has done a survey of farmers and the impact that the introduction of nitrate vulnerable zones would have upon them and their industry, and they found that 73 per cent of slurry-producing farmers in Wales currently don’t have storage facilities sufficient to meet the requirements of the NVZ proposals, and that the average cost of complying with them would be nearly £80,000. In a world where farm incomes are not only low but plummeting—farm incomes have dropped 25 per cent in the last year—an insensitive approach to this problem is simply going to mean that large numbers of farmers, particularly in the dairy industry, are going to go out of business. I certainly don’t think that that is a price worth paying for the short-term gains that the environment secretary is consulting about.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don’t think that one word you could apply to me is ‘insensitive’, and I’m certainly not insensitive to this. My officials did meet with representatives of the NFU early in October, and they had a very constructive meeting. I’ve also met with the NFU on several occasions, the last being a week last Thursday, I think. Obviously, they are concerned and they raised those concerns with me. Without consultation—I’m not going to pre-empt that consultation, and I go back to my answer to Paul Davies around those who are already meeting those existing storage standards, for whom the cost of compliance would be minimal.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, the facts, of course, belie that, and the NFU I think are pretty reliable consultees on this particular issues. But there are other solutions to the problem of nitrate pollution, and they’ve been applied in England. ADAS has produced a booklet that is entitled, ‘101 ways to reduce nitrates’. In fact, in Wales, nitrate fertiliser consumption has gone down by 43 per cent between 1990 and 2013, so it’s not as though nothing is happening out in the real world. And, in fact, in the Cleddau area in Pembrokeshire, where there was a creamery that had to reduce its nitrate waste by 8 tonnes, local farmers formed together as a co-operative—25 of them—and they each reduced their own nitrate waste by a tonne. So, they actually reduced the amount of nitrate waste in that area by 25 tonnes altogether. Now, that’s without the kind of sledgehammer approach of the regime that the environment Secretary is currently consulting on. So, I wonder if I can get to—without pre-empting, obviously, the outcome of the consultation—an open-minded commitment for her to look at things in the round and to consider, nonetheless, the possibility of a voluntary regime if the

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’m always open-minded when I go into a consultation, but I go back to what I said, that 65 per cent of our farms do not meet those standards—standards that have been there for 25 years. But, of course, the flip is that 35 per cent do reach those standards. So, maybe we should make sure that the best practice is shared from that 35 per cent of farms to that 65 per cent, but I’m absolutely open-minded.

Neil Hamilton AC: Good. Well, I’m delighted to hear that. We’re making progress, but, you know—

Lesley Griffiths AC: So patronising.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, we are making progress. I mean that as a compliment. Well, I have to say that in her answers to me previously, Llywydd, all I’ve had are some monosyllabic replies on the issue of regulatory impact assessments, for example, which is part of the Government’s own code of conduct. They promised to have regulatory impact assessments as part of consultations such as this, and it isn’t there, and I think for the reason that Paul Davies alluded to.Given that we are going to leave the EU within the next two or three years, by the time this consultation is concluded and by the time regulations are in a position to be imposed, there may be only a matter of months left anyway. Surely, in circumstances such as this, where we so have the opportunity to tailor-make regulations that suit Wales as a separate entity, as opposed to a regime that covers an entire continent, it must make sense to have a moratorium upon measures of this kind, which can have a devastating impact on business for marginal improvements in environment quality, given that there are other ways of solving the problem.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’m sure the Member would love to leave the EU far quicker than we’re going to, but we are still in the EU. While we’re in the EU, we need to live within our obligations to the EU. So, I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on that point. Going forward, after we leave the EU, that’s a completely different kettle of fish, if you like. We need to make sure, then, we have those specific policies right for Wales. But at the moment, we are still in the EU.

<p>Slurry Lagoons</p>

Angela Burns AC: 3. Will you provide an update on the guidance the Welsh Government has issued to planning authorities on slurry lagoons? OAQ(5)0078(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. ‘Planning Policy Wales’ is clear the planning system should promote good environmental practice that includes minimising the risks of pollution. Guidance on slurry lagoons is available from Welsh Government as part of implementing the Water Resources (Control of Pollution) (Silage, Slurry and Agricultural Fuel Oil) (Wales) Regulations 2010.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you for that answer. I listened very carefully to what you had to say to other Members around the Chamber, because, already, farmers are struggling to get permission for slurry lagoons. You talk about the 65 per cent who don’t comply—I would ask you, Minister, how many of those farm holdings have struggled to get planning permission and have faced incredibly fierce opposition from locals who do not want to have a slurry lagoon on their doorstep? That is the reality, and the question I would like to pose to you is: we have the potential of the NVZs coming through, what discussions have you had with your Cabinet colleagues as to how you can change the planning system, which has a negative bias built into it, and what can you do to overcome the costs involved and the objection of local residents so that farmers can go ahead and put lagoons in where appropriate and where they’re not going to be damaged by any potential NVZ? Because I would like to remind you, with the greatest respect, Cabinet Secretary, that farmers are very good stewards of our land and they do face an enormous uphill struggle, particularly against planning authorities.

Lesley Griffiths AC: With respect, I don’t have to have any discussions with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues because I’m responsible for planning, too. So, I’m able to restructure planning policy, particularly in light of the goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. I think it’s really important that we have that strategic and long-term commitment within the planning system to promote sustainable development—that includes minimising pollution.You’re absolutely right, the majority of farmers absolutely look after their land. The one thing that has struck me in my many discussions over the past few months with farmers is the pride they take in that land management and that they are so much more than food producers, for instance. The stewardship of land is something that I absolutely don’t think is recognised by the public in the way it should be. I have had several discussions with farmers when I’ve visited them, and I always ask to see their slurry lagoon—I think I’m getting a bit of a reputation—because it is such an important aspect of life for them. I know that some of them have had difficulties with planning, I can’t tell you how many or how specific it is to local objections, but it is important that our planning policy assists them where they want to do that.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, the task is becoming more difficult because, from what I understand, the Pembrokeshire cabinet has opposed the NVZ, and this morning, Carmarthenshire County Council also voted against the NVZ. But, of course, the purpose of a slurry lagoon is to keep slurry until it is used in a meaningful way or is spread or used in that way. So, what discussions are you having with contractors, who are an important part of this jigsaw, given that they are responsible for transporting slurry from lagoons and redistributing the wealth, if you like, across an area? They will be severely impacted by the fact that they will have to lay off their workforce over the winter if the NVZ is introduced, and it will be more perhaps difficult to get contractors to work in a scientific way as possible, as happens now. Is there any discussion with contractors around this use of slurry and the NVZs?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I haven’t personally had any, but I know my officials have. We’ve worked with the Construction Industry Research and Information Association also. It is a very important point that you raise about the capacity of the lagoons, as to how much can be used at any one time. I think that was part of the early engagement, prior to going out to consultation.

<p>Tidal Lagoons</p>

Dai Lloyd AC: 4. What assessment has the Minister made of the energy potential of tidal lagoons? OAQ(5)0084(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. As part of the development for the first national marine plan for Wales, various assessments have been undertaken. These have identified the potential of renewable energy opportunities along the Welsh coastline of more than 6 GW.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware, of course, of all the discussions that have been ongoing now over a long period of time on the possible development of a tidal lagoon in Swansea bay. What local people want to know is when the Swansea tidal lagoon will be built.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, we are awaiting, obviously, a decision by the UK Government. I know that there are many conversations going on between the company, along with Natural Resources Wales. I have met with the company to show that, in principle, we are absolutely committed to supporting the development of a sustainable tidal lagoon industry here in Wales.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, in your response on tidal lagoons you highlighted how they could play an important part in delivering green energy and part of the renewables mixed basket of opportunity that you as a Government will be promoting. But also in that basket of mixed energy opportunities is the ability for smaller land-based renewable projects. The real issue is about getting connection to the grid for many of those projects. I know I’ve asked you this question before, but are you making progress with the energy providers, such as Western Power—or the infrastructure providers, should I say—to allow them to assist so that small energy projects can get those connections, and assist in the green energy credentials of Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, certainly those conversations are ongoing and we are making progress.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, the proposed tidal lagoon for Swansea will be the first such scheme in the world and, as such, is unproven technology. The developers claim the scheme will deliver 320 MW of installed capacity, but we have no way of knowing how much electricity will be actually generated. As we have seen from the Ramsey sound tidal scheme, things don’t always go to plan. Cabinet Secretary, what steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure that the tidal lagoons plan for Wales deliver the stated benefits, given the significant public investment that is required?

Lesley Griffiths AC: As I said in my earlier answer to Dai Lloyd, we’re awaiting, obviously, the UK Government’s decision on this. I have met with them to show that, in principle, we are committed to supporting tidal lagoons here in Wales. Certainly, from the discussions I’ve had, you’re right: it is a novel technology, so we need to know more about it. But I absolutely think Wales and the UK could become leaders in this field and I think we would gain significant economic benefit.

John Griffiths AC: When Charles Hendry held an event here on the tidal lagoon, Cabinet Secretary, it was clear that there’s a very strong consensus of support across the political parties and, indeed, in Wales in general. Now that Charles Hendry has submitted his report last week, I think, to UK Government, will you continue to make Welsh Government support apparent to UK Government and also emphasise the consensus that exists in Wales and in the Assembly?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely. We had hoped that the Hendry report would be submitted to the UK Government a little while before last week. We were hoping, certainly, the beginning of November. I’m very pleased that they’ve now got it. We look forward to their view of the report. I have requested, alongside my colleague Ken Skates, that we are fully engaged in discussions prior to any other announcements being made.

<p>Air Quality</p>

Mark Isherwood AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government monitoring noise air quality management in Wales? OAQ(5)0068(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We are tackling noise and air pollution in a number of ways. These include through local air quality management, industry regulation, the planning regime and the promotion of active travel. We are currently reviewing the responses to the public consultation seeking views on what more we can do in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. You referred to the local air quality and noise management consultation. How do you respond to concerns raised with me that the questions in that suggest that the assessment of air quality be done on the basis of averaging any impacts and benefits across the whole population of Wales, rather than focusing on the most vulnerable, and disregarding the critical weighting that should be given to hyperlocal specifics that might detect and report excess pollution suffered particularly by children, older people or disabled people? There’s also the fact that there’s no mention in the preamble to the document to guidance or consultation from the Wales health impact assessment support unit.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I haven’t heard any complaints about the questions or the way that the consultation was put together. If you’ve received one or more, I’d be very interested to have a note from you so I can look at it. A great deal of thought went into that consultation document, and I think the questions we’ve asked are absolutely appropriate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: One of the hotspots for air pollution is in Cardiff, so I’m very keen to find out exactly what monitoring the Welsh Government is doing of the levels of air quality in the Cardiff urban area. How confident are you that you will manage to satisfy Mr Justice Garnham by the end of April that you are able to take measures to deal with the illegal levels of air pollution that we are suffering?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Across Cardiff, there are some localised areas where air pollution is problematic, I think mainly as a result of road traffic emissions. At these locations, we have air quality management areas that have been declared as such by the local authority. It’s their duty to tackle local air quality. I’ve been assured that their action plans will all be in place shortly in accordance with statutory guidance.I think addressing air pollution really requires a collaborative approach. We are currently, as I said, reviewing the responses to the public consultation, and I’m hoping, the results of that consultation, I’m going to feed to local authorities, because as I say, it is their responsibility to make sure that they fulfil all their requirements.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, you’ve mentioned road traffic emissions and it’s clear that they play a very significant part in terms of air pollution and the impact on human health. Diesel emissions are particularly significant. Would you agree with me that—? Hopefully, we’ll get to electric vehicles as quickly as possible, but before we do that, there are other practical steps that may be taken to address these issues, such as the conversion of taxi fleets from diesel to liquefied petroleum gas. The industry tells me that can be achieved with, perhaps, some grant support and they could repay that grant within a period of something like two years.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. I think Birmingham are looking to electrify their taxi fleet, so it will be very interesting to see what they do. In relation to electric vehicles, I’m very keen to see us move to more electric vehicles, but, of course, a stumbling block or a barrier is the lack of recharging points. So, I’m looking to see if I can, perhaps, find some small amount of money so that I could help incentivise local authorities to install them, even if it’s only just one, just to start the ball rolling. Some local authorities do have them, obviously. People have them at home. But I think it is a barrier for people purchasing an electric vehicle, because there are no charging points and, of course, there are no charging points because there aren’t enough electric vehicles, so it’s a vicious circle that I am very keen to break.

Question 6 [OAQ(5)0070(ERA)] was withdrawn.Question 7, John Griffiths.

<p>The Urban Areas of Newport</p>

John Griffiths AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government policy to improve the environment in the inner urban areas of Newport? OAQ(5)0079(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Our policy is to deliver programmes that bring together local people, groups, businesses and organisations to deliver services to improve where they live or work. This includes our eco-schools programme, which has 20 schools in inner Newport, empowering and inspiring young people to make positive environmental changes to their lives.

John Griffiths AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. Cabinet Secretary, we’ve had recent good news in terms of the quality of the Wales coast path and the advantages it brings to Wales. It was always envisaged that the coast path would be connected to urban areas through circular routes. I wonder if you could tell the Assembly what progress has been made in terms of those hopes and plans and whether you could support the establishment of those routes in Newport and elsewhere.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We absolutely recognise the importance of access opportunities for communities in order to promote better health and well-being. I think the Wales coastal path has not just been a hit with tourists; it’s absolutely been a hit with local communities and people right across Wales. We provide funding to NRW to maintain and improve the path, and there is a detailed work programme agreed with local authorities to develop links between local communities such as urban areas and the coast. I would hope that Newport City Council would be able to identify some routes and then secure support from NRW to improve and develop them.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, fly-tipping is becoming an increasing problem in parts of Newport. A community group called Pride in Pill has taken action by holding regular litter picks as part of its campaign to improve the local environment for residents. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in congratulating Pride in Pill on its community spirit? What more can the Welsh Government do to assist local authorities to tackle fly-tipping, which blights many of our inner urban areas in south-east Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I thought the Member was going to invite me to join him on a litter pick, which I would be very happy to do, and I have undertaken several over the past few months. [Laughter.] But I absolutely congratulate the group. It’s been so good to see communities coming together and taking such pride. I went along to a litter pick in an area of Cardiff a couple of months ago, and it was good to see residents coming up and thanking the volunteers for making their community so much better. In reply to your question about what more we can do on fly-tipping, I think it’s really important that local authorities enforce fines in relation to fly-tipping. I recently met with Phil Bale, the leader of City of Cardiff Council, because they’ve got a particular issue about one black bin bag of rubbish being dumped, which perhaps people don’t recognise as fly-tipping, but it absolutely is—just because it’s one bag. So, we’re looking to see what fines can be imposed in relation to that also.

<p>The C40 Mayors Summit</p>

David Melding AC: 8. What are the implications for the Welsh Government following the C40 Mayors Summit in which Paris, Athens, Madrid and Mexico City committed to diesel free status by 2025? OAQ(5)0076(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The mayors’ commitment to ban diesel vehicles from these four cities by 2025 is one response to the growing public awareness of the health effects of air pollution. We are currently reviewing our air quality policies, following our consultation on the subject, which closed on 6 December.

David Melding AC: It’s quite clear the message here is that urban areas, to be really attractive for the local population, but also inward investment and their economic health, require clean air—the best quality possible. There are ways that we can manage that now, even before we formally ban diesel cars. It’s really important that, in Wales, we see the leadership we could be giving for the whole of the UK, and that will bring very great benefits to us economically as well.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I’m not sure, David, if you were in the Chamber when Simon Thomas raised a similar issue around this, and I was saying that, you know, you’re absolutely right. We’ve got this group of mayors—and I met several of them when I was at Conference of the Parties 22—who are being really ambitious with their targets for ending the use of diesel cars by 2025. I was saying in my previous response that I think it’s really important that Wales stays at the fore. We’ve always been ahead of these things, and we need to be looking to make sure that we’re not being left behind.

Gareth Bennett AC: It’s interesting that the environmental push is now there to reduce the use of diesel cars because it seems to be only a few years ago that we were actually being encouraged to use diesel by many of the same people. So, I wonder if the Minister would agree that this is one example of an area where the received wisdom in the environmental field, within a few years, turns out to be completely wrong.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think it’s called science and moving on and learning. I absolutely would like to set a target to get rid of fossil fuel cars by a certain date, but to do that you have to make sure that we have, for instance, the metro, where we’ve got that sustainable transport in place for the public to use. But, absolutely, the way forward is to get rid of diesel cars and fossil fuel cars.

<p>The Oil Pipeline Breach at Nantycaws</p>

Adam Price AC: 9. What assessment has the Minister made of the consequences of the oil pipeline breach at Nantycaws? OAQ(5)0077(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. An assessment of the oil spill at Nantycaws is currently being carried out by Natural Resources Wales. This will investigate the causes of the breach, its impacts and any action for Natural Resources Wales under its powers as regulator. Until this investigation is concluded, I cannot comment further.

Adam Price AC: I attended a public meeting locally last week, and I have to say there was some disquiet among local residents in light of the absence of the Valero company, but also because of a lack of information provided by public authorities. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary to insist that NRW does publish the results of all the tests that they have conducted on the rivers and the ground? They should have done so by now. What monitoring work will go on in future? Could she also put pressure on the Food Standards Agency to provide the necessary information to local farmers on any possible contamination of the land and the food chain? Would it be possible to confirm what enforcement steps NRW is taking in order to ensure that all the remediation work that the company has promised, and has been requested by local people, will actually be conducted as soon as possible?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I’ve been informed that the investigation by NRW isn’t going to be completed until the end of March, which is obviously quite a significant time away. So, I’m very happy to ask NRW to publish what they can before that time. I know that you are meeting NRW on Friday, so I’ll make sure that I do that ahead of time. I’m very concerned to hear of the public meeting last week and the disquiet amongst your constituents. Again, I will speak to NRW around that. Also, yes, I’m very happy to, and will write to the Food Standards Agency to ensure that any necessary information that the farmers need around the area of the spill, that they do get that information ASAP.

Angela Burns AC: Cabinet Secretary, this was an industrial accident, it was unforeseen, it was unintended, and I also look forward to the report. I would like to commend both Valero and NRW for the very speedy way in which they dealt with this. I would like us all to reserve judgment. Valero are a very strong company in my constituency who do have an environmental record that is worth noting is extremely good. What I’m very interested to know, Cabinet Secretary, is what lessons might be learned for what else may be happening in that pipeline as it proceeds through Wales. Are there any other ways that we might be able to monitor that pipeline to ensure that the oil spill that Adam Price refers to doesn’t actually happen elsewhere?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, when I attended the site of the spill—I think that was on Saturday 8 October—I met with Valero and NRW, and I was very pleased to see the way that they were working together. But, you’re quite right; at that time, the cause of the spill had not been identified, but it is really important—it's a very long pipe—it's really important that that's monitored in a way that absolutely we learn all the lessons we can to avoid that sort of spill again.

<p>Protecting Wild Animals in Circuses</p>

Steffan Lewis AC: 10. Will the Minister make a statement on steps taken by the Welsh Government to protect wild animals in circuses? OAQ(5)0073(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I will be publishing a written statement on this issue tomorrow. We will explore the possibility of introducing a scheme, such as registration or licensing, for mobile animal exhibits, including circuses, which display domestic and exotic animals in Wales. A public consultation will be undertaken here early next year.

Steffan Lewis AC: I very much welcome that answer from the Cabinet Secretary and thank her for it. I wonder if she could give an indication, therefore, of the timescale in terms of implementing and introducing any new regulations and legislation, as this has been an issue that has been ongoing for some time already.

Lesley Griffiths AC: It has been a long-standing issue, and it's something that I have taken a particular interest in since I came into post in May. I recently met with the DEFRA Minister, because I wanted to engage in discussions with them to see if we could have a joint sort of scheme and initiatives going forward. He was very keen to also speak to Scotland and Northern Ireland to see if we could have a UK-wide approach. However, it needs to be done at pace, and, if it isn't going to be done at pace, we will have our own scheme, as I say, and look at what else we can do. But I agree: it does need to be done very quickly. As I say, a written statement will be coming out tomorrow, before we go into recess, with more details.

Russell George AC: I'm grateful; I don't think there's any place for wild animals in circuses. I agree with that. This is something promoted by the Welsh Conservatives some years ago, and I'm pleased that there will be a statement tomorrow. But can I say: how has it taken so long to get to this point? It was your predecessor, Rebecca Evans, who first initiated this, and it has taken a long time to get to this position.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, as I say, it's something that I have taken a particular interest in, you know, six months—well, seven months—into post. I've had several discussions. I've now met with the DEFRA Minister. We've been waiting to see—. We don't have any circuses actually licensed here in Wales; they’re licensed in England. So, I think it's very important that we do have that cross-Government approach to this.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question—Andrew R.T. Davies.

<p>Park Homes</p>

Andrew RT Davies AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s report ‘Understanding the Economics of the Park Home Industry’? OAQ(5)0090(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. The study is the most comprehensive ever carried out on the sector in Wales. It covers almost 74 per cent of all park home sites, as well as stakeholders. It contains four key recommendations, which I’m currently considering in terms of the implementation.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. You are quite right to identify the Welsh Government put in significant resource—I think in the region of £50,000—into this report, and there were key recommendations, which I'd be pleased to hear how you’re going to be taking those recommendations forward. But I met with some residents from park homes last week who made the point that one of their key concerns about the commission when they sell park homes—and the restrictions on the sale of those park homes back to the owners is a very burdensome and cumbersome process, and very restrictive as well. The report didn't offer a way forward to resolving that particular concern that park home owners had. Are you minded to explore further opportunities to see if some assistance can be brought to raise this issue and actually lift this burden that is placed on park home owners that is so restrictive when they decide to sell their park homes at the end of their tenure?

Carl Sargeant AC: I think many Members have made representations to me and previous Ministers on this issue. Indeed, Kirsty Williams last week had a conversation with me about a group in her constituency. I am aware of the issue around the 10 per cent levy, commission rate, on this, and I am giving this further consideration in the round of the whole report, based on the outcomes of my discussions with my team, and I will make a further statement on this.

<p>Child Poverty in Torfaen</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government is tackling child poverty in Torfaen? OAQ(5)0091(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her question. We are supporting parents into employment through Communities for Work, investing in the early years and building resilient communities that can offer children the best start in life.

Lynne Neagle AC: The Communities First programme is playing a crucial role in Torfaen in tackling poverty. The programme has been very successful and was ranked No. 1 in Wales for helping people into employment, and No. 1 for adults completing employment-related courses. This is in addition to the vital role Communities First plays in mitigating the impact of welfare reforms. In the event of the Cabinet Secretary going ahead with the phasing out of Communities First, what steps will you take to ensure that the very best elements of the programme are retained and, most importantly, properly resourced?

Carl Sargeant AC: The Member is right to raise the issue of Communities First, as many others do in this Chamber. I have said often that there are many good programmes within the Communities First clusters, but the reality is, as we discussed yesterday in the debate around child poverty, the very stubborn effects of poverty are very hard to move into a different space. We have to take a very new approach to the way that we manage and support resilient communities. I’m grateful for the Member’s comments. I haven’t made a decision yet on Communities First, but I will keep her and other colleagues posted as I make those deliberations in the early new year.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, I have no doubt that you’re doing a wonderful job on various things to reduce poverty. You have taken a lot of—[Interruption.] Wait a minute. You have taken a lot of—. [Interruption.] You have taken a lot of, your Government has taken a lot of, initiatives to reduce poverty among children—yes, we had Communities First, Flying Start, Families First, et cetera, et cetera. But the fact is—[Interruption.] The fact is we are still, sadly—our children in Torfaen, Islwyn and Blaenau Gwent are the worst-off children living in the countries of the United Kingdom. I would like to ask you what other initiatives you’re taking. I think our Government is raising the personal allowance up to £12,500, which will benefit a lot of families—[Interruption.]—a number of families, 1.5 million, to reduce in-work poverty, which is one of the aims of the child poverty strategy by the British Government. So, which initiative are you going to take to reduce child poverty in Wales, please?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his comments at the start of his question; we’re very grateful for them. It’s not for me to give the Member a history lesson, but I will remind him that poverty just doesn’t happen by chance—there are often causes to this. Back in the 1980s, when his party was in power in the UK, they destroyed our communities in Wales with the coal mines and the steelworkers, which had a massive effect on our young people and their lives ahead of them.I can say what are our programmes, and the Member recognises them—Families First, Flying Start and the whole support mechanisms around the family are important ones. But you should not take anything back from the fact that your welfare-reform aspects have a massive impact on the people of Wales and the UK. You, as a party, should think about that very, very carefully.

David J Rowlands AC: Cabinet Secretary, UKIP concurs with the Welsh Government’s decision to review or end the Communities First programme. This was a Government flagship strategy designed to eradicate deprivation in Wales. Whilst there are some examples of success, there are also glaring examples of mismanagement. For instance, the 3Gs Development Trust programme in Merthyr spent £1.3 million on staff salaries out of a budget of £1.5 million. Would the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the people of Penydarren, Galon Uchaf and Gurnos were let down by this organisation?

Carl Sargeant AC: Look, I won’t knock Communities First’s workforce—they are doing a fantastic job across communities—but this is an extremely difficult nut to crack. Poverty is not moving in the right direction. That’s why we have to have an overarching rethink here. Huw Lewis and Dawn Boden, now, are doing a fantastic job in their communities, representing their communities with Communities First workforces. I will make a decision in the new year about what the future looks like, but what we’ve got to remember about this is it’s about the people on the ground.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. What assistance is the Welsh Government offering to owner-occupier families at risk of being evicted from their home by their mortgage company for mortgage arrears?

Carl Sargeant AC: We have pathways through local authorities where there are opportunities to speak with anti-homelessness officers in authorities across Wales. We have a very good recognition in a 63 per cent reduction in homelessness figures in Wales.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Last November, the national sleeping rough count estimated that 240 people across Wales were sleeping rough during one week in November 2015. Granted, it’s an estimate, but many people will find themselves on the streets this Christmas, often through no fault of their own. What is the Welsh Government doing to address this problem and help rough sleepers escape their horrendous situation?

Carl Sargeant AC: I agree with the Member in that nobody should be homeless at any point, particularly at Christmas. It’s a terrible place to be considering. But we are investing in homelessness provision through organisations like Llamau. We invest in our communities—in local authorities—but there are still people who present as homeless and we are doing our damnedest to make provision to support these people who find themselves in this position.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you. I know that the Cabinet Secretary is as concerned as I am about the welfare of our forces veterans. Has the Cabinet Secretary instructed local authorities to prioritise the housing of homeless veterans? If not, does the Cabinet Secretary intend to do so?

Carl Sargeant AC: We introduced last week a new housing pathway for veterans, which was created and designed with veterans in that process. I launched that in Lesley Griffiths’s constituency in Wrexham, and it’s a very popular one. I was with armed forces personnel only last week, with the general in Wales, and he was very complimentary about the efforts we’re making here to support the armed forces, including the armed forces advisory group and the cross-party group that Darren Millar chairs in the Chamber.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed AC: Cabinet Secretary, you may know that I’ve met with quite a few asylum-seeker families recently in Swansea with regard to the awful conditions that many of them are facing with regard to Home Office provision via the company Clearsprings Ready Homes. I was wondering whether you would be able to facilitate a conversation with the Home Office on these terrible conditions, notwithstanding the fact that many private landlords in Wales have contacted me saying that they do lease their homes to the Home Office for Clearsprings to utilise to house asylum seekers. So, while it may not be a direct decision for you to make as housing Minister here, the inevitable consequences are that we have responsibilities in this area, and I would like you to make representations to show the severity of the situation now here in Wales.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m supportive of the Member’s question. I think the Member should write to me in detail on that. I think she’s right to raise that, while this is a non-devolved function, we do pick up the consequences of vulnerability. I think that’s something I’m very interested in trying to resolve with the Member.

Bethan Sayed AC: Just following on from that, I wonder whether you would be willing, as Cabinet Secretary, to meet with some of the asylum seekers and refugees in the area so that they can tell you directly what those concerns are, because many of them feel that they’re not listened to. There are myths, of course, about the fact that they are taking homes from people from Wales. That is not the case entirely—they’re not on any list that any other person here in Wales would be on with regard to social housing. They find it very, very difficult to make complaints, and have said to me that they have faced racism from Clearsprings staff when they have been making updates to their homes. So, would you be willing to do that, Cabinet Secretary, so that you can hear for yourself those problems first hand?

Carl Sargeant AC: Certainly, if I am able to meet with them, I will do. If not, I will certainly provide a member of staff to support your support in meeting them.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you very much. On a different matter entirely, I know that you will be aware that we’ve had some extremely cold weather recently, but, of course, it’s been a bit milder—not that I’m a weatherwoman all of a sudden. There was—[Interruption.] Oh, it’s the last day of term.On a serious level, there were news reports recently of a man freezing to death in Birmingham, and now my office has learned that one local authority in south-east Wales has not provided any emergency accommodation for rough sleepers in its direct area. Although the severe weather emergency protocol isn’t compulsory for local authorities here, your Government’s code of practice does state that all councils should have a written cold weather plan that includes their arrangements to help rough sleepers during periods of cold and severe weather.We’ve looked into, as an office, more of the plans across Wales. Some local authorities have good plans, but others told us there were still discussions ongoing now about what those plans should be. Do you think it’s acceptable that some local authorities still haven’t had those discussions with partners? What will you be doing to make sure that all of those local authorities have plans in place so that we don’t face situations where people are dying on our streets this winter?

Carl Sargeant AC: I will look at that in more detail—I’ll speak to my Cabinet colleagues as well. I think this is a moral issue—the politics aside of any local authority, actually we’re talking about human beings here. Anybody who finds themselves in a homeless position—it would be terrifying, and there for the grace of God go I, sometimes. The fact is we should make sure we look after people humanely. I will look at the detail that the Member presents, and I’ll ask Cabinet colleagues to look at that in their own portfolios as well.

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. The Bevan Foundation’s July 2016 ‘Equality and Social Justice Briefing’ on poverty said that the latest figures from the Department for Work and Pensions’s households below average income survey showed that low household incomes continue to be a significant problem in Wales, with more than one in five people living on a household income below 60 per cent of the median, and children being at the greatest risk of poverty, although the largest group of people on low incomes being adults of working age. And they added that the longer-term and more recent trends in poverty have had little impact on Wales’s position compared to other UK nations and regions, with Wales continuing to have one of the highest rates of poverty in the UK for all age groups. Why is that, Cabinet Secretary?

Carl Sargeant AC: That’s why we’re introducing 100,000 apprenticeships for all ages. That’s why we’re continuing with Communities for Work. That’s why we’re continuing with the Lift programme. That’s why we want to engage with our communities to build better, stronger communities. I was very clear about my sense of direction yesterday. I would welcome the Member’s comments in terms of embracing the opportunities that we have here in Wales, with this very stubborn effect of poverty. We have to work together. Governments can’t fix poverty. We have to have a collective about this, about how we do this, and that’s why the WFG Act is an important one, where all our public sector partners have a part to play in this.

Mark Isherwood AC: So, you’re not going to tell us why that is. May I suggest that you and your colleagues have been running economic development and employability programmes in Wales since 1999, and that is the situation now? Your department, I believe, is responsible for the Lift programme, as part of your tackling poverty action plan, providing training and employment opportunities for people in households where no-one is in work. And I believe you’re also responsible for the Communities for Work programme, focusing on the most deprived communities, which clearly fall within your portfolio. And you’re also extending both programmes from 2018 to 2020. What due diligence have you carried out? I understand the Welsh Government has been unable or unwilling to release data on the outcome from those programmes, and it’s understood that, by contrast, the UK Government Work Programme providers in Wales have been able to achieve five to 10 times better value for money, delivering the average cost of a job at £3,000, whereas it’s understood that the jobs under your schemes are running into possibly tens of thousands of pounds.

Carl Sargeant AC: Two points. First of all, I’m very grateful to the Member for suggesting a response to my question earlier on. But may I remind him that it was his Government that was in power in the eighties that absolutely devastated Wales, with the highest rate of unemployment ever in the UK? And his mate on the front bench there, in UKIP, was part of the Government at the time as well, so he can’t shake his head either. The second point of the issue around Communities for Work and the Lift programme is one that is an important one. I haven’t dodged the fact that we won’t release figures; I’m more than happy to look at them in the new year and furnish the Assembly with those details. This is about getting people at the hardest end to reach back into the workplace—not an easy cohort of people to deal with, but we have success and we should celebrate success. Stop knocking Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: I’m reliably informed that people have been unable to obtain the proper data despite asking for it, so it would be welcome if you could deliver it. And don’t tell me about the 1980s. I know what it’s like for your father to come home and tell you that the manufacturing company he works for has shut and that he’s become unemployed. That happened in 1978 because of the economic meltdown created under Labour. [Interruption.] Yes it did, and I lived that life, so don’t you lecture me.Finally, the situation in Wales on the latest figures is that we have higher economic inactivity rates than England, Scotland or UK levels. We have the second highest percentage of people in work living below the living wage. We have the highest levels of underemployment in the UK, according to the latest figures from the Carnegie UK Trust. We have the highest percentage of employees not on permanent contracts, and the second highest proportion of employees on zero-hours contracts, again after 17 and a half years of Labour Government in Wales. Why is that, Cabinet Secretary?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m very grateful for the Member’s very aggressive tone that he has brought to the questioning. I also remember the times through the 1980s when the Member worked in the local building society, taking the redundancy cheques from the steelworkers that were made redundant by the UK Government at that very time—a very difficult time, and a community that was broken at that time. So, again, in lecturing about what happened in our communities, you can ask many Members on these benches what happened to their communities under the Conservative administration.Can I say that rebuilding communities, as I said earlier on, doesn’t go on a switch? You have to work at this, and we’ve been working very hard. And places like Flintshire, which was devastated with the highest redundancy notice ever served in Europe in one day by the UK Government, have now been transformed to have one of the lowest unemployment levels. And that’s not by chance—that’s by a Labour authority, with a Labour administration here. So, I don’t take any lectures from the Member opposite; he wants to take a reality check.

<p>New Homes in Islwyn</p>

Rhianon Passmore AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s plans to deliver affordable new homes in Islwyn? OAQ(5)0086(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for Islwyn for her question. We are committed to increasing the number of affordable homes across Wales. We continue to invest in social rented housing and Help to Buy, and are developing innovative new schemes, in order to meet our ambitious target of 20,000 homes.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Earlier this month, you announced that the Welsh Government will invest an additional £30 million this year towards providing 20,000 affordable new homes. The Welsh Government’s affordable housing target of 10,000 additional affordable homes in the last Assembly was exceeded, with the housing supply pact between Welsh Government and Community Housing Cymru playing an important role in meeting that target. What actions can that partnership take to deliver our new ambitious targets, and how will the people of Islwyn directly benefit from this?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, I’m grateful to the Member for reminding the Chamber of the success of the last term of Government. I’m very pleased to have entered, only in the last two weeks, into a new housing pact with Community Housing Cymru and the WLGA for this term of Government. It is an ambitious target of 20,000 homes, but my good friend and colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance is helping us by announcing an additional £30 million this month to start on the build with the big 20,000 homes project, which your constituents will directly benefit from.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, Caerphilly council has recently granted planning permission for a development of 175 homes on derelict land at Hawtin Park industrial estate, near Blackwood. Guidelines for the development include the provision that 25 per cent should be affordable housing. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in welcoming this increase in the supply of affordable homes in Islwyn, and what measures does he intend to take to make more derelict land available for housing in Wales?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, Ken Skates and I—I’m not familiar with the project the Member raises, but I’m always keen to make sure that we have a contribution of affordable homes across the length and breadth of Wales. Ken Skates and I are working on a land opportunity fund, where we can see how we can develop not only Welsh Government land, but also public sector land, and release that into the opportunity for home building in the future.

<p>Charities Supporting Families</p>

Angela Burns AC: 4. Will the Minister outline the support the Welsh Government has provided to charities supporting families? OAQ(5)0083(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: Good afternoon. Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government directly and indirectly supports a number of organisations providing support to families. Within my portfolio, the children and families delivery grant, Families First and Flying Start give support to third sector groups that aim to meet the priorities of supporting well-being, reducing poverty and, indeed, tackling adverse childhood experiences.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you for that answer. But, Cabinet Secretary, could you explain why the Welsh Government have seen fit to reduce funding for the Family Fund charity from £2,508,950 in 2015-16 to a figure of £1.9 million for the next three years? That is in comparison to the Scottish, Northern Irish and Westminster Governments, who have all decided to retain the same level of funding they had previously. This seems to run slightly counter to your previous answers this afternoon, which indicate that your view is that the economic situation in Wales is improving.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m very grateful for the Member’s question. I would point out to the Deputy Presiding Officer that the Family Fund budget rests within my colleague’s budget line, but will ask her to write to you. Rebecca Evans is the Minister who deals with this particular issue.

Simon Thomas AC: Can I draw your attention, Minister, to the work of the Penparcau Community Forum? Penparcau used to be a Communities First area; it’s the community I live in. It lost the Communities First status at the previous reiteration and review of Communities First, but, if anything, has been even more successful post Communities First than previously, because it’s been able to do a lot more working with other partners, in a way that’s freed them up, if you like. They’re very keen that you look at the work that they’ve done, because they believe that they point the way ahead for post Communities First, which you are considering in the new year. We had a very successful meeting about 18 months ago—your predecessor came and met with the community forum in Penparcau together with the Presiding Officer and myself. Since then, they’ve moved on; they’ve got a new community facility, which will be opening in the summer. They warmly welcome you to that opening around that time and hope that you can accept an invitation at that stage, but in particular, they want to talk to you about how, post Communities First, they can work at a community level with families with a high level of child poverty to really address the issues of the community. I hope you’ll take the opportunity to meet with them and learn about them.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m very grateful for the invitation and look forward to receiving that formally. I am familiar with Penparcau; indeed, I welcomed their tweet when they tweeted about the fact that there is potential life after Communities First. I think we have to have ambition about opportunities—[Inaudible.]—and that we learn from organisations like them. I’ve spoken to the previous Minister about this very organisation and I’d be happy to come and visit and speak with them about the success that they’ve been able to achieve.

<p>The Traveller Community</p>

Michelle Brown AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on actions the Welsh Government is taking to support the traveller community? OAQ(5)0088(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her question. The Welsh Government has worked to improve outcomes for Gypsies and Travellers through the ‘Travelling to a Better Future’ framework for action and delivery plan. There has been real progress since 2014 and an update to the plan was published in March this year.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. What measures are the Welsh Government taking to foster liaison and communication between Travellers and local settled communities that they move into?

Carl Sargeant AC: We have cohesion co-ordinators to work with Gypsy and Traveller groups and I meet with representatives of the community regularly.

John Griffiths AC: In terms of the outreach effort, Cabinet Secretary, I know that it’s important to address the issues that Gypsy/Traveller families have in the round, including better educational attainment and better school attendance. I know that that effort involves not just work in the schools, but also within the community and the whole-family approach. In terms of the whole-family approach and outreach, will you look at Welsh Government resource and support for that aspect of this work, please?

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, we provide funding for the Save the Children’s Travelling Ahead project through the equality and inclusion grant to support awareness of rights and participation amongst young Gypsies and Travellers. You’re right: the family approach is an important one. Gypsy and Traveller families are probably one of the most disadvantaged families and have the shortest lifespan out of most of the strands in terms of equality. It’s something that we should consider very carefully about our intervention. I met with a spokesperson only last week, who talked about their failure to report hate crimes against them, because they fear that nothing gets done. We should be looking at that very carefully as well. So, I’ve asked my team to engage further with them. But the Member raises a very important question about how we engage and the whole-family approach.

Russell George AC: I have an interest as a member of Powys County Council. Members of Machynlleth Town Council have expressed their concerns regarding proposals by Powys County Council to locate a permanent Traveller site near Machynlleth. Town councillors agree that there hasn’t been a formal consultation, as they had been promised by the county council, with residents regarding possible locations for the site. I have made my own representations to the local authority and I would be grateful if you would add your weight to the calls for Powys County Council to hold a full and proper and transparent consultation to ensure that residents have the opportunity to express their suggestions about location and ideas themselves.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’d be surprised if the authority haven’t engaged with their local communities, but I’ll take the Member’s word for that. It’s something that I would expect them to do in a transparent way. Sometimes when people don’t like the outcomes of decisions, there’s always a conspiracy behind it, but what we have to think about here is the process. There is a principle of operating under the well-being of future generations Act that is about involvement and consultation and I would expect Powys to be involved in that.But we also have to recognise that, often, particularly around Gypsy and Traveller sites, they are very difficult places to find in communities because many people will say, ‘We just don’t want them’, for the wrong reasons. Actually, we have to have a grown-up conversation here about where we site people on a long-term basis. Again, I’ll go back to a previous question, presented by Bethan Jenkins: these are human beings we’re talking about. Actually, sticking them under a bypass is not appropriate. We have to make sure we’ve got proper provision for Roma families that wish to live in these places.

<p>Youth Justice</p>

Caroline Jones AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government’s policy on youth justice? OAQ(5)0084(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: We believe that children and young people who are in the youth justice system should be treated as children first and offenders second. This is reflected in our joint strategy with the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. However, it was disappointing to read that a prison within my region has over 60 per cent of its 15 to 18-year-olds entering the prison with a drug-related issue. It was also highlighted that many of these teenagers will have spent time in the care system, truanted from school, or suffered with learning difficulties and/or mental health issues. With these indictors of vulnerability already highlighted, why is it that they were not supported sufficiently prior to entering prison, and have we already failed these teenagers once and, when they’re released from prison, unless we take action, they will be returned to the same environment and more likely to reoffend yet again? Cabinet Secretary, what systems do you have in place to support vulnerable young people to prevent them in the first place from entering the youth justice system, and what support has the Government, the Welsh Government, put in place to support young people leaving the prison in order to prevent the reoffending?

Carl Sargeant AC: Well, there are two aspects to this. One is the prison side of things, which is a non-devolved function, but the fact is, for me, nothing hurts me more than to see young people incarcerated. It’s a failure of the system that we have. We must get beyond—. We must operate our services before we get into that space. That’s why we’re investing in the advanced case-management programme with the youth justice board. We’ve had some great success, where we’ve had four pilots running across Wales. Twenty of the most prolific reoffenders among young people have been stopped from reoffending because we’ve treated the symptoms of adverse childhood experiences. So, we’ve looked back at the drug and alcohol issues, family breakdowns, and we’re treating those, rather than saying, ‘You can’t reoffend.’ It doesn’t work at that end, we’ve got to get into the system early on, and that’s why we’re shifting our proposals into tackling economic well-being, giving people jobs, growth and skills—and you’ll get fed up of hearing me talk about this, but actually we’ve got to this and tackle the well-being aspect of ACEs, because that’s where we have to invest our finance to make sure children don’t get into the youth justice system.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, can I ask you, in light of the UK Government’s recent publication of the Taylor review of youth justice, whether the Welsh Government intends to pursue greater influence over youth justice in Wales through the existing powers we have with regard to vulnerable children? So, for example, the last Welsh Government proposed the establishment of statutory reintegration and resettlement partnership under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, but we didn’t make it because of the time before running up to the Assembly elections. So, is it now time to put this back on the agenda and to explore other areas where, in Wales, we can do things differently and do things better?

Carl Sargeant AC: Indeed, and I’m very familiar with that proposal and the Charlie Taylor review. I met with Dr Phillip Lee MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State only on Monday to talk about the Taylor review. We discussed there the issue around devolution. I think Charlie Taylor got it wrong in his observations. He talked about devolution in an English sense, not recognising that most of the services provided around youth justice are actually devolved already. So, health and social services are all functions of this Government or bodies that are related to this Government. I talked to Phillip Lee, and he was minded—he’s going to come to visit Wales to discuss the issues that are pertinent to us, but I think, ultimately, this should be part of the Wales Bill and should be devolved to us. We are doing a great job in managing young people and their aspirations for the future. It would be wrong to go backwards a step. To be fair to the Under-Secretary of State, he did agree with us in terms of that; he didn’t want to take a retrograde step, he wanted to work with us.

Mark Isherwood AC: In response to the Taylor review just referred to, which was published on Monday, the review of youth justice, the measures announced by the UK Government include launching two secure schools, concentrating on English, maths and a range of work-training schemes to help reform and to help offenders find work on release. In February 2010, the Assembly’s Communities and Culture Committee produced a report, ‘Youth Justice: The experience of Welsh children in the Secure Estate’, recommending that the Welsh Government engage with the UK Government‘towards enabling the development of new secure estate placements in Wales, using the Hillside secure unit in Neath as a model, and including the development of provision in an appropriate location in North Wales.’ Could you update us on what engagement, in the context of the Taylor review recommendations, has occurred?

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, thank you, and I’m sure the Member was listening to my response to Huw Irranca-Davies. We disagree with much of Charlie Taylor’s review. We will not be introducing secure schools here in Wales. I have visited the Hillside programme. I am looking at step-down facilities. From that, we do have Welsh solutions for these problems. I don’t think the secure school process is the right and appropriate way. We shouldn’t be incarcerating our young people; we should be supporting them upfront.

<p>The Cardiff Violence Prevention Programme</p>

Lee Waters AC: 7. What is being done to maintain momentum on the implementation of the Cardiff Violence Prevention Programme across Wales? OAQ(5)0076(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. The Welsh Government is committed to making our communities safe. I welcome initiatives such as the Cardiff violence prevention programme, which has had a positive impact on our communities, and we are working with our NHS colleagues to move this forward.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It’s been some years now since Professor Jonathan Shepherd did pioneering work in Cardiff to collect A&E data to reduce violence in Cardiff city centre. Since then, the English Government have used that approach and hard-wired it into the operation of public services in England. What can be done to make sure that we maintain the momentum behind our own programme, and what are the opportunities under the implementation of the ask-and-act policy under the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 to make sure that data are collected and acted upon?

Carl Sargeant AC: Yes, I think Jonathan Shepherd has done a remarkable job. Indeed, from his work on this, he now features in my advisory group on domestic violence services. So, he’s bringing his intelligence around this to this programme too. The requirements through the NHS and emergency services departments is the challenge we face at the moment, about integrating it across the system. But it is something I know the health Minister is looking at very carefully to make sure we push this agenda out. It is a great prevent model, because we know if we can recognise where there are issues in communities through alcohol misuse and violence, then we can prevent that if we have some hard-line, early interventions. So, I’m grateful for the Member’s question today. I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for health to update you on how the implementation is going through the NHS system.

David Melding AC: Can I add to the commendation of this particular programme, because there’s no doubt that we can use data very effectively to see where behaviour change can result from some fairly small changes to the way we deliver services or what we allow in the urban environment, for example, whether you have glass glasses or plastic glasses. There are lots of things there that contain the issue of a lot of young people drinking too much at certain times and then behaving badly, and, with some changes like street pastors, there are lots of things that can help reduce the level of violence.

Carl Sargeant AC: The Member’s right and, again, it’s an excellent programme where research came from not within the community safety sector but from the medical sector, which was really interesting. When we measured the impact in Cardiff, violence fell by 42 per cent, which is a huge, huge amount. We must continue to roll this programme out and, as I said to the previous question, we will update Members in terms of how this programme is being secured across our estate.

<p>The Regeneration of Communities in Pembrokeshire</p>

Paul Davies AC: 8. Will the Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing to regenerate communities in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0075(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. The regeneration priorities for Pembrokeshire are to support town centres and to help sustain resilient communities. This is being delivered through support from the town-centre loan fund and the town-centre partnership initiative.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, you’ll no doubt be aware of the planned closure of Lloyds bank branches throughout Wales and that the number of planned closures in Pembrokeshire is wholly disproportionate to the number of nationwide closures, given that three of the 49 planned branch closures happen to actually be in my own constituency. Deputy Presiding Officer, I should declare an interest as a former employee of Lloyds Bank. Given that these banks are a lifeline for many people and that their closure will have a huge impact on those communities, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to help to mitigate against the negative effects of these closures on communities in Pembrokeshire, and what specific regeneration assistance will actually be available to support those affected communities?

Carl Sargeant AC: Of course, I recognise the impact that bank closures can have on constituencies, and other Members have raised that too. It seems to have all gone downhill since the Member left, perhaps, in terms of his former role. Specifically in Pembrokeshire, we are supporting Pembrokeshire County Council with £1.25 million through the Vibrant and Viable Places town-centre loans scheme to reduce the number of vacant, underutilised and redundant sites and premises in the town centres of Pembroke, Milford Haven and Haverfordwest. We do have to work in partnership to make sure that we get this off the ground here. It’s really hard to turn communities around—once these properties become empty, getting them re-floated is a difficult one. So, I and Ken Skates are working across both parts of the departments to make sure that we can make investments not only in Pembrokeshire, but across Wales.

Simon Thomas AC: Minister, there can be unforeseen consequences to regeneration on occasion. Improvements to the road infrastructure, for example, in Fishguard means that Transition Bro Gwaun, which is a community regeneration project, is losing its home, which is used to have a surplus food cafe, involving many local people and also doing a very good environmental job. They also do a wider regeneration job in that they have a community turbine part-owned by the local community. Obviously, this is a decision, I accept, for Pembrokeshire County Council, and I’ll be contacting them directly, but I think a clear direction from Welsh Government that there should be an integrated approach to ensure that we don’t lose things when we do regeneration activities would be useful in this context.

Carl Sargeant AC: This is the whole purpose of the well-being Act. The well-being of a community is based upon looking at what the community needs, what the community has and what we can develop with them. Again, I’m not familiar with the very specific question the Member raises, but it seems to me that this could have been planned through in the first place. I would urge the Member to take it up with the local authority.

<p>Child Poverty in South Wales</p>

Caroline Jones AC: 9. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s priorities on tackling child poverty in south Wales? OAQ(5)0081(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her question. Our priorities for tackling child poverty include building a strong economy, increasing employability and supporting parents into work, and improving outcomes in the early years.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Wales continues to have some of the highest levels of child poverty in the UK. Within my region, South Wales West, we have over 36,000 children living in poverty, and that’s 28.4 per cent of the region’s children. The UK Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission annual state of the nation report was critical of the Welsh Government’s policies, stating that they’re not having the right level of impact. You announced yesterday that it was unlikely that we would achieve the target of eradicating child poverty by 2020. The children’s commissioner has said that instead of an arbitrary target, we would now need to deliver an ambitious plan with specific and measurable actions that will improve outcomes for children and families in poverty. Cabinet Secretary, could you tell me please what changes you are proposing to make to your child poverty strategy for my region over the next three years, because poverty is blighting the opportunities of these children, who are more likely to suffer poor health, do less well at school and have poor employment prospects in the future?

Carl Sargeant AC: The Member is right to raise this very important issue, and we made a statement yesterday and I’ve had, I think, three questions today on child poverty. So, it is on everybody’s agenda, and rightly so. What I did say in the statement yesterday is that we don’t hold all the levers and drivers to achieve the ambitious target by 2020, and I will be very open about that, but there are things that we can do. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows households in Wales will lose 1.6 per cent of their net income on average, or around £459 a year, as a result planned tax and benefit reforms to be introduced by 2020. So, this is another aspect where we have no involvement but which actually has a major impact on our communities. So, why are we changing our direction of travel in tackling jobs and well-being? This is because we know that the current situation is finding it very hard to deal with the issues that tackle poverty.I’m grateful for the Member’s support for the way that we’re going to be tackling issues around adverse childhood experiences, and I hope that she can support us on the budget when it’s laid in the early new year.

<p>The Valleys Taskforce</p>

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Within our south Wales Valleys towns, there have been immense and sustained efforts within recent years to economically and socially regenerate those communities that were devastated in those years after the—. [Interruption]

Can you ask the question on the order paper, please?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: My apologies, my apologies. [Interruption]. I know—seven months. I will get the hang of this. [Laughter.]

You’ve got four years. Carry on.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 10. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister overseeing the Valleys Taskforce on the regeneration of valleys communities? OAQ(5)0078(CC)

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful for the Member’s question. The Welsh Government has supported successive regeneration programmes in the Valleys, including the current capital programme, Vibrant and Viable Places. I have explored with the Minister how all parts of my portfolio can support the work that he does running alongside the emerging priorities of the taskforce.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and he may have some hint of where I’m going with this question. [Laughter.] Within our south Wales Valleys towns, there have been immense and sustained efforts in recent years to economically and socially regenerate those communities that were devastated in the hard years after the collieries closed, and those efforts continue. But one of the most visible scars of the economic decline in some Valleys towns is the lasting downturn on the high streets, and it’s also a reflection of changing shopping patterns as well as lower spending power and footfall, reflected in closure of shops and empty premises, and in itself can lead to a feeling of further decline unless it’s rapidly arrested. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: in collaboration with other Cabinet colleagues and the Minister with the taskforce for the Valleys, whether he will assess the effectiveness of existing measures that can help with the physical regeneration of the high streets in our Valleys towns, and examine the scope for further measures that could boost the economic vitality of these high streets? And of course, I’d be delighted to welcome him to Ogmore any time to show him the successes we’ve had in community and economic regeneration, as well as the remaining challenges.

Carl Sargeant AC: Indeed. The Member raises a strong question there in terms of the difficult job of changing some of our more disconnected communities outside the Vibrant and Viable Places programme. The Vibrant and Viable Places programme has delivered many successful programmes, but I do recognise the issue that the Member has raised, and Alun Davies, in particular, has raised these issues with me. I am looking at what the future of regeneration programmes may look like. The Member may wish to drop me a line in terms of his ideas to see whether there is anything he can influence my decisions on in terms of what that might look like for the benefit of his constituency.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Urgent Question: Post Office Provision

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

We have accepted two urgent questions this afternoon under Standing Order 12.66. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to ask the first urgent question.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Will the Government make a statement on the effect of the UK Government’s plans for a reduction in Post Office provision in rural areas? EAQ(5)0092(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his question. We recognise the importance of post offices and the important services they provide to local communities. As the Member will know, this is not a devolved matter, however I understand that the UK Government are currently consulting on the post office network. This consultation contains no specific proposals for rural post offices.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, I’m not sure if that’s entirely correct, Cabinet Secretary, because there is a duty at the moment for the Post Office to ensure that there is provision within some 3 miles of 95 per cent of the rural community in the UK. That is being reviewed as part of the proposals put forward by the UK Government at the moment, and who knows what the outcome of that will be. But certainly, it’s a cause of concern for us all, and on top of that, we know that the subsidy provided by the Westminster Government to the post office network will lapse in a little over a year, in March 2018. Now, with post offices at their busiest, of course, at this Christmas period, can you tell us what input you as a Government have had into this review that is ongoing, particularly bearing in mind, of course, that only last week the First Minister told me, in response to a question on the future of rural banks, that his priority now is to secure the future of the post office network, because they can provide certain services in banking? Would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the best way now of securing the future of our post offices in Wales is to ensure that it’s all devolved to us here?

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m certainly supportive of the principle of supporting post offices in our communities, and rightly so, but the Member is right that this decision matter lies with the UK Government. I am not aware of the plans to close rural post offices. I think the Member may have picked up this story from ‘The Telegraph’—[Interruption.]—and other information sources. My understanding is that the current UK Government has committed to maintaining the post office network at its current size of 11,600 branches, but he’s right to raise the issue that we should keep an eye on what they’re doing in Westminster, as who knows what they may do with the post offices in the future.

Simon Thomas AC: There is a risk for many communities, however, because we’re already losing the banks—as has already been mentioned a number of times in the Assembly recently—and the solution for that, for a number of bodies, including the Government here and the Government in Westminster, is using the post office network to deal with that loss. Now, there are two problems there. There’s the problem that Llyr Gruffydd has just outlined, but the second problem is that not all post offices, particularly in our smaller towns, can cope with businesses. What we need is a safe window to deal with the funds paid into post offices by businesses, and if we lose our banks, then post offices do have to handle rural businesses and businesses in rural towns. There’s a good example of this happening in Blaenau Ffestiniog, where the post office has moved, but in moving it has safeguarded the ability to deal with small businesses. That’s how we want to see things developing. Although it’s not devolved, it’s extremely important that this Government does put pressure on the Westminster Government to ensure that that provision is available in rural Wales, and that it’s adequate, not only for individuals but also for small businesses, too.

Carl Sargeant AC: The Member is right; the consultation currently under way is intended to inform the next state aid application to allow the Government to continue to fund the uneconomic elements of the Post Office network, which I think they should look at very carefully. The Welsh Government will be making a representation and I would urge the Member to do the same.

Mark Isherwood AC: In fact, I think you’ve just answered my question. I think we’re all relying on that ‘Telegraph’ article in which the UK Government business, energy and industrial department says the consultation‘has nothing to do with closing branches’,and the Post Office spokesperson said the consultation was part of the Government’s application to the European Union to continue the state aid to the network.I welcome the fact that you say you’re going to make representations. I wonder if you could confirm that you would share both the representations you make and the responses you receive with the Assembly.

Carl Sargeant AC: I think it would be difficult if we were to start having urgent questions by ‘The Telegraph’ every week—because it’s in ‘The Telegraph’. I would suggest that wasn’t the case in this case, but I did also see the article in that publication. I will be happy to share with Members the Government’s response and the response back from the UK Ministers.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Urgent Question: The Proposed M4 Relief Road

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I now call on Neil Hamilton to ask the second urgent question. Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the announcement today on the public inquiry into the proposed M4 relief road? EAQ(5)0099(EI)

Julie James AC: The Minister’s statement this morning simply states the date of the public inquiry and it says that:‘The project shall proceed to be considered by independent inspectors at an inquiry determined by the planning inspectorate to commence on 28 February 2017, with a pre-inquiry meeting…on 27 January.’

Neil Hamilton AC: Can I thank the Minister for that statement and welcome today’s announcement, and, indeed, point out that when the Cabinet Secretary made his statement on this last on 3 October, he said it would start no later than 31 March next year? So, it’s welcome news that it’s going to start a month earlier than the latest possible date. David Cameron, in one of his more memorable statements, described the current situation of the congestion on the M4 as a‘foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy’.It is vital, therefore, that this inquiry should be concluded at the earliest possible date.Does the Minister have any indication how long the inquiry’s likely to last? In the statement in October, it was said to last around five months. Has that estimate been revised? Since October, the traffic forecasts for the future on the M4 have been revised to a lower level and I wonder if the Government’s enthusiasm for the black route has dimmed—[Interruption.] I’m asking a question now. [Interruption.] If the Government’s enthusiasm for the black route has diminished and therefore the blue route will get proper consideration as an alternative, I wonder if the Minister can also tell me whether she or any of her colleagues has had any meetings with Professor Stuart Cole or anybody who has been an advocate for the blue route to work up the case for that as an alternative to the black route in the context of this inquiry, and therefore whether she will confirm that the Government will take a reasonably open-minded view about this, that there is more than one way of solving this problem and that the evidence that the Government gives to the inquiry will take full account of the alternative propositions that are on offer. [Interruption.]

Thank you. Minister, will you answer, please?

Julie James AC: In the spirit of openness and transparency, full technical economic and environmental reporting that informed the review of the data is published on the Welsh Government website, allowing everyone to consider it. The public inquiry will take into account the views of everybody concerned. It will take as long as it takes. I’m well aware that there is a range of views towards this project across the Chamber and elsewhere across Wales, and the whole purpose of the inquiry is to allow those views to be heard and taken into account in the decision-making process.

Russell George AC: Minister, can you confirm—? The Cabinet Secretary today said that works would commence in 2018, but clearly the end of 2018 is 24 months away from now. Can you confirm when in 2018 it may start? Can you refine that date a little, subject, of course, to the public inquiry outcome?In your statement today, you say that the Cabinet Secretary said the latest assessment indicates that future traffic levels, taking into account the latest metro proposals, will continue to grow, but slightly slower than previously thought. Will the new modelling have an impact on other infrastructure projects in the pipeline? And finally, can you confirm that the project is still viable at the estimated costs, with the revised data for population added?

Julie James AC: Well, Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m now at risk of reading out the written statement made by the Cabinet Secretary this morning, which contains all of the information. The written statement this morning simply sets out the latest position on the review of data that was announced by the Cabinet Secretary earlier. The statement simply states the date of the commencement of the public inquiry, which I’m sure all of us welcome, and it sets out some possibilities as a result of a public inquiry.

Thank you very much. We now—. [Interruption.] Go on.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m genuinely seeking clarification as a new Member in this Assembly. I’m seeking clarification—and I don’t have the rule book in front of me—on the relevant part of Standing Orders referring to urgent questions, and what constitutes an urgent question. I say that not with any disrespect to the urgent question that we’ve just heard, but it does seem that some urgent questions are neither urgent nor new, nor a question [Laughter.] As such, I genuinely seek your advice and guidance, as a new Member, as to what we should put in, in future, as an urgent question.

Thank you. If the question that’s tabled is then accepted by either the Presiding Officer or, in the absence of the Presiding Officer, me, it’s deemed to be an urgent question. Therefore, it should be heard in the same way as urgent questions that you may think would be urgent, not necessarily that everybody else thinks are urgent. So, it’s down to the Presiding Officer. I think that the criteria that were used today were that this is the last sitting of the Assembly before the break, and therefore it gives Members an opportunity to question relevant issues that may have already just been issued as a statement. It was accepted on that issue. But thank you for raising that point of order.

5. 3. 90-second Statements

We’ll move on to the 90-second statements and I’ll call Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Born in 1700, Griffith Morgan, known as Guto, lived in Nyth Brân farm in Llanwonno. Guto was a remarkable runner, able to personally round up the family’s sheep and even catch birds in flight. One tale describes him running the 7 miles to Pontypridd and back home again before a kettle had boiled. In his greatest race, Guto ran 12 miles in 53 minutes, but died shortly afterwards, aged just 37.Although he had died, his story lived on. On New Year’s Eve 1958, organised by Mountain Ash resident Bernard Baldwin, the first Nos Galan race was held to pay tribute to the legend of Guto, the highlight of which was the midnight race through the town centre. Each year, a mystery runner, a prominent figure from sport whose identity is always a closely guarded secret, leads the race, embodying the spirit of Guto in an act of pilgrimage that commences at Guto’s graveside in St Gwynno’s church.Strong support from the community has been the foundation as the event has grown from strength to strength, with elite, amateur and children’s races all packed full of runners. The Nos Galan is now truly international, bringing close to 10,000 people into Mountain Ash each year. 2016 marks the fifty-ninth anniversary of the Nos Galan, with people from all over the world taking part and raising money for charity. Last year, competitors came from as far afield as South Africa and Texas. I will be stewarding at the Nos Galan races again this year, playing my own part in commemorating Guto Nyth Brân and celebrating his legend.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I want to draw your attention to the Friends Against Scams programme, which is a National Trading Standards scheme, and it is needed because figures show that there’s been an increase of 60 per cent in this kind of fraud over the past five years. Recently, constituents of mine received a phone call from someone who claimed to be from a well-known broadband company, asking for their computer details. It was only when they asked for bank details that the constituents realised that something was amiss, and actually put the phone down. Fortunately, they contacted my office and I could advise them on how to safeguard both their computers and their money.I know well another individual who fell for a very similar scam. Yes, there was a financial loss, but more than that, I saw the embarrassment that this individual felt. Those responsible for scamming often target the most vulnerable, and they rely on people feeling that embarrassment and shame so that they don’t mention it to anyone. It is estimated that only five per cent of people who have been scammed actually inform the authorities of it.The truth is that turning to friends or family is a way of sharing that anxiety, and there are plenty of organisations available to turn to warn others and try and recoup funds, including the older people’s commissioner, the local trading standards office, or Citizens Advice. I would encourage everyone here to go on the Friends Against Scams website, friendsagainstscams.org.uk, and to raise awareness of scamming in order to try to defend innocent people from these cruel criminals.

Thank you very much. The last one of this year and this sitting is Elin Jones.

Elin Jones AC: One of the privileges of my role as the Assembly Member for Ceredigion is that I represent the fine town of Cardigan, Aberteifi. The name Aberteifi derives from its location on the banks of the majestic river Teifi. Its English name reflects an Anglicisation of Ceredigion—‘gwlad Ceredig’, Ceredig’s land, one-time king of Ceredigion. Many centuries later, it was the seventh Earl of Cardigan who led the charge of the light brigade in the Crimean war who gave the name of ‘cardigan’ to a garment worn by soldiers in that war, now worn by all.Tomorrow, the town of Cardigan will be officially renamed ‘Jumper’. It’ll do so in the Christmas spirit, but also to raise awareness and funds for Save the Children’s wear a woolly Christmas jumper campaign. Cardigan will become Jumper. A giant Christmas jumper will be unveiled by the town mayor of Jumper. Jumper schoolchildren will wear Christmas jumpers. Jumper rugby club will train in jumpers, and sheep in fields surrounding Jumper will wear woolly jumpers. [Laughter.] I will be the Assembly Member for Jumper. I could have worn a Christmas jumper for this statement, but I chose not to run the risk of being thrown out by the Deputy Presiding Officer for unparliamentary attire. [Laughter.]I have no doubt that the people of Jumper will have a fabulous time replacing their cardigans with jumpers. However, it is being done for a serious purpose: to remind us all that many, many children in our country and in our world will not have a fabulous Christmas and that we need to continue to work to change that.

Ann Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much.

6. 4. Statement by the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on the Committee's Inquiry into Human Rights

We now move to item 4 on our agenda, which is a statement by the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on the committee’s inquiry into human rights. I call John Griffiths as Chair of the committee. John.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to inform Members today that the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee is launching a call for evidence for our forthcoming inquiry on human rights in Wales. Over the summer, we consulted stakeholders about what they felt should be our strategic priorities. A number of organisations, including Stonewall Cymru, Children in Wales and the Bevan Foundation, wanted us to undertake work on human rights. They highlighted areas of concern, such as the impact of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, as well as the UK Government’s proposals to change domestic legislation.I expect human rights to be a key part of our approach to many, if not all, of the inquiries undertaken by the committee. This is certainly true of our work to date. On Monday, we published our first report on our post-legislative scrutiny of the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. We made a range of recommendations, including ensuring that teaching about healthy relationships is delivered in all schools as part of the new curriculum being put in place following the Donaldson review. The committee was influenced by the view of the national adviser, who told us that the curriculum should include compulsory preventative programmes on all forms of violence, grounded in a gender equality and human rights framework.The committee is currently undertaking an inquiry on refugees and asylum seekers in Wales. We have visited service providers and service users in Cardiff and Swansea, and we started taking oral evidence last week. It is becoming clear that a key issue for refugees and asylum seekers, and the services that support them, is understanding and enforcing their rights.The week before last we visited Glasgow and Edinburgh. We wanted to compare approaches to supporting refugees and asylum seekers in Scotland and Wales. We also had a very fruitful meeting with the convener of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee of the Scottish Parliament, Christina McKelvie MSP. There is significant potential for collaborative work on human rights and a range of other issues. I look forward to further dialogue with Christina and our counterparts across the UK and beyond. I will keep Members informed as these relationships develop.But let me return, Llywydd, to the inquiry we are launching today. I would be grateful if Members would draw this work to the attention of people in their constituencies and regions. I am very happy to provide further information and materials to help Members publicise the inquiry and encourage feedback. I would encourage you to discuss your specific needs with the officials supporting the committee. The wider the range of evidence, the more equipped the committee will be to make recommendations and hold the Government to account on this issue. The closing date for our consultation is 10 February. We expect to be able to hold oral evidence sessions in March, before the Easter recess.Human rights is a broad and complex topic. For our first piece of specific work on this issue, the committee has decided on a focused and high-level approach. In taking this approach, we want to build on previous work in this area. In particular, we want to follow up on the fourth Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee inquiry in 2013 into the future of equality and human rights in Wales. We will also be building on the expert discussion held in 2014 by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. This covered issues such as the current devolution settlement in relation to human rights, the approach to human rights in Welsh legislation, good and poor practice, and developing the human rights agenda in Wales.Our terms of reference have three components. First, we want to examine the impact of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union on human rights protection in Wales. Human rights are protected by a complex collection of laws and treaties. The UK’s withdrawal from the European Union does not automatically affect the UK’s status as a signatory to the European convention on human rights. The convention is an international treaty distinct from the EU treaties and EU charter of fundamental rights.I’m very keen that our inquiry should link up with the work that is already under way on this issue by the UK Parliament’s Joint Committee on Human Rights, as well as by the Scottish Parliament’s Equalities and Human Rights Committee. I will liaise closely with the Chair of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee as this work develops.Second, we want to assess the impact of the UK Government’s proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 and replace it with a UK bill of rights. Human rights is a key part of both the devolution settlement and the UK constitution. Our understanding is that the UK Government remains committed to replacing the Human Rights Act with a British bill of rights, which would curtail the role of the European Court of Human Rights. The Attorney-General appeared to indicate last week that this could be delayed while the UK Government deals with other matters. We will be seeking clarification of the timetable.Meanwhile, I welcome the assurances given to the committee by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children in September, when he told us that he would keep Members informed of any concrete proposals from the UK Government. I share his view that the National Assembly should be fully engaged in any consultation that affects the human rights of the people of Wales. There will clearly be a role for the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in examining any such proposals. I hope that the preliminary policy work of our committee will inform such consideration.The third and final component of this inquiry is public perceptions about human rights in Wales. We are particularly interested in how understandable and relevant they are to Welsh people. We want to know what people think about the relevance of human rights in everyday Welsh life, and the role of public bodies in engaging and informing the public about their rights. This is especially important given the different approach to human rights in Wales, for example, in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011.Dirprwy Lywydd, I see the work of the committee, in launching this inquiry today, as part of a rights-based approach to scrutiny throughout the fifth Assembly. I expect our work programme to combine explicitly human rights-focused inquiries with examining the broad range of topics within our remit from a rights perspective. This inquiry will set the strategic context for that approach. I will be very happy to answer any questions Members have, to help us shape this inquiry. Diolch yn fawr.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I do believe that this inquiry into human rights is crucial and very timely for the committee. This afternoon, I’d like to discuss one specific area of the inquiry that will need to be addressed in detail in my view, namely, equality between men and women. One of the fundamental objectives of the European Union is gender equality, and it is identified as a fundamental right within European law. But of course women’s rights are under threat in relation to Brexit, and we must do everything we can to safeguard the rights we currently have. The powers for equality and employment issues should lie here in Wales. The case for that is stronger than ever now.European law has been responsible for many of the benefits that have been placed in law. For example, it’s European law that was responsible for expanding the right to equal pay and improving protections against discrimination on a gender basis. It’s European law that’s enhanced access to justice for women who’ve been treated unfairly. It’s European law that has assisted part-time female workers and has strengthened the rights of pregnant women and women new to the workplace. But, of course, in leaving the European Union those very rights are under threat. Now, they may not disappear overnight, but they will be diluted over time, and the gains of the past 40 years will be lost. Given the anti-women climate that both Trump and UKIP, through the statements made by Farage, promote, there is scope for us to be very guarded in this area. Therefore, I think this inquiry can assist us to better understand the situation and to understand what needs to be done to safeguard those rights that have been gained over time.The inquiry into violence against women and the legislation passed last year has been completed, and I would urge the Welsh Government to implement the recommendations made. There were 14 recommendations in total, which I hope will strengthen the implementation of the legislation on the ground.The inquiry into asylum seekers and refugees is ongoing at present, and it is becoming more and more apparent, as the committee Chair mentioned, that there are huge problems in terms of the lack of access and the lack of information about basic services that face a number of asylum seekers and refugees currently in Wales. The hope is that we in this inquiry can find a way forward on those issues, too.I’m very pleased to see the linkages being made between our committee here in the Assembly and the Equalities and Human Rights Committee in Scotland. I hope to see that relationship prospering, and, certainly in light of the inquiry into human rights, there will be an opportunity to share information and to learn from each other. That’s something that I warmly welcome, and I look forward to participating in the inquiry.

John Griffiths AC: I thank Sian Gwenllian very much for those points, and very much agree that gender equality will be absolutely central to the work of the committee and that many of the important protections in place come from the European Union. And, obviously, Brexit, and what’s proposed by UK Government, will be very relevant to the work of the committee and consideration of how we can not just safeguard existing rights, but obviously develop them and improve on them. And I’m sure we’ll get much evidence that’s relevant to those concerns and those issues.I would also very much agree that the previous inquiry by the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in the last Assembly is a base that we will move forward from in terms of the work that the committee will be undertaking. The work around the equality duties, for example, is very relevant and significant. So, I very much look forward to taking this work forward with Sian Gwenllian and the other members of the committee.With regard to asylum seekers and refugees and our ongoing inquiry, I do believe that information on services, and obviously the quality and availability of services, is central to that. I think our visit to Scotland—to Glasgow and Edinburgh—was very informative, and I do think that, out of that, will come an ongoing relationship where we share experience and we work as a committee with our counterpart committee in Scotland and, indeed, other committees in the UK.

Mark Isherwood AC: We welcome this inquiry into human rights, and, as somebody who took part in the fourth Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee’s inquiry into the future of equality and human rights in Wales, I welcome the fact that you wish to follow up on that. I wonder if you could just comment, given that, obviously, equality and human rights are both critically important, but are often interpreted as different things, although interrelated—. I wonder, therefore, given the dialogue so far, the extent to which you’re going to focus on human rights specifically, or the extent to which you’re also going to be looking at the broader equality issues to which many of those rights apply.You make reference, understandably, to the UK Government proposals to replace the Human Rights Act 1998 with a British Bill of rights, and we share your understanding that the Attorney-General appears to have announced a delay, as the Government focuses on withdrawal from the EU, although we note that, in August, the UK justice Secretary did confirm the UK Government’s continued intention to go ahead with this. The proposal, I understand, is that the Bill of rights proposed will ensure that Parliament is the ultimate source of legal authority, and the Supreme Court is supreme in the interpretation of law, and to put the text of the original human rights convention into primary legislation. I wonder to what extent will you be giving attention to this, and how the areas that Wales would wish to safeguard will be safeguarded whilst addressing what some have described as ‘mission creep’ in the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. You’ll be aware the European Court of Human Rights was long established to enforce the convention’s terms, but it wasn’t until 1998 that binding jurisdiction of the court, and the right of individuals to take a case to Strasbourg, became necessary for countries and states signed up to the convention. And these developments happened at the same time as the UK brought forward its own Human Rights Act.Will you, therefore, give attention to the living instrument doctrine, adopted by the European Court of Human Rights, to expand the convention’s rights into new areas beyond those that the framers of the convention had in mind when they signed up to it? Obviously, there’s concern that some decisions appear to overrule democratically elected Parliaments, and overturn UK courts’ application of convention rights.Again, will you give consideration to the impacts of the requirement for UK courts to take into account rulings of the Strasbourg court when they are interpreting convention rights, which means problematic Strasbourg jurisprudence is often being applied in UK law, and, also, whether the current UK Human Rights Act undermines the sovereignty of Parliament and democratic accountability to the public?Moving on from the specific proposals UK Government has as they might impact in Wales, earlier this year, the annual human rights lecture in Wales was delivered by the Reverend Aled Edwards, known to most of us as the chief executive of Churches Together in Wales, Cytûn, and the secretary of the Interfaith Council for Wales. He discussed the experience of asylum seekers, migrants and refugees in Wales and across the world, relating this to the protection and promotion of human rights. He asked what role can the Welsh organisations and individuals play to help protect the human rights of asylum seekers, migrants and refugees in Wales and elsewhere. Could you confirm whether an answer to that question might be something that you would be seeking to address?Similarly in that context, last week I hosted the Sanctuary in the Senedd event with the Welsh Refugee Council, recognising cross-party support in Wales for Wales to become a nation of sanctuary, but recognising that more needs to be done by both society at large, people, and public authorities, to turn the aspiration into a reality. And, again, will you give consideration to their seven steps to sanctuary, intended to move Wales forward on its journey to becoming a nation of sanctuary?As I referred to yesterday, earlier this month we saw the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, on the third. In Wales, the United Nations charter on the rights of disabled people was incorporated into the Part 2 code of practice under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. This was based on implementing the social model of disability, which wasn’t actually in the Act itself, recognising that people are disabled not because of their impairments, but because of the barriers that they encounter, and that society has a duty to remove barriers to access and inclusion for them, by working with them to identify and understand those barriers. Again, would you given consideration to this and its implementation, where it’s apparent—certainly from my casework, and, no doubt, many other Members’—that many public sector bodies perhaps are struggling to understand how that should be implemented, by engaging with disabled groups, advocates, access groups, before decisions are taken, rather than after the money is spent?I’ve almost concluded. I wanted to refer to older people. Human rights have particular relevance for older people, who may find themselves in situations where they experience infringements to their human rights later in life. There are few more basic human rights, as Age Cymru state, than that of being protected from violence or exploitation, and older people must not be placed at risk of abuse or neglect. How, therefore, do you respond to their call for agencies to work together to safeguard individuals, to uphold an individual’s fundamental right to be safe, and to support those who’ve experienced abuse or neglect, and also their concern about the lack of human rights protection for people who self-fund their care services, which has become an issue of concern, where all people in care—older people—must have equal protection from abuse and poor treatment? I suppose, in this context, if you can confirm that you will be taking the evidence that they have certainly shared with me and, no doubt, many others.Very finally—[Inaudible.]—a report was produced based on the human rights round-table discussion held by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, with 22 organisations represented, including those bodies, Stonewall Cymru, Mencap, Disability Wales and many others. They made a series of recommendations on a way forward that could help take forward human rights in Wales—to develop a human rights narrative, as they said, that sets out that human rights are for everyone and that they can also be used to improve services and explore how we approach non-devolved issues also in terms of human rights. So, again, could you confirm that you will draw on that piece of work to inform the evidence that you gather? Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: I thank Mark Isherwood for those points. What we’re doing today, of course, is launching our inquiry and inviting evidence to come forward. I’m sure a whole host of organisations will raise many matters and I’m sure many of them will be on the ground that Mark Isherwood has set out today because, obviously, these matters are very relevant to human rights here in Wales. So, we look forward to that process and to receiving evidence from, hopefully, a very wide range of organisations and indeed individuals. As I said earlier, I hope Members will play their part in encouraging that feedback.As far as some of the constitutional matters are concerned, obviously it will not be just the committee that I chair that will be concerned with these matters. As I said earlier, the Constitutional and Legal Affairs Committee, I’m sure, will take a keen interest, and the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee similarly, and others, including committees elsewhere in the UK. So, I’m sure that a wealth of work will be taking place and obviously we will, as a committee, take a keen interest in all of that. But we are trying to be both high-level and, at the same time, focused. So, that’s why we’ve set out the three aspects really: to give focus and discipline to this body of work, because it could be very complex and almost all-encompassing. So, it is about the impact on human rights in Wales of withdrawal from the European Union, it is about the UK Government’s decision to repeal the human rights legislation and replace it with a UK Bill of rights, and it is about public perceptions in terms of the relevance of human rights to everyday life in Wales. So, those will be the parameters of the committee’s approach and, within that, as I say, I’m sure we’ll have a very strong feeding in of ideas that we can consider in that context.As far as asylum seekers and refugees are concerned, that particular inquiry will focus on organisations in Wales and the role they can play in providing support and assistance to asylum seekers and refugees in Wales. When we went to visit some of those organisations that are making that provision in Wales, we met numerous voluntary organisations and members of the community that are doing just that, and that was very informative and obviously we will have further evidence provided in other ways.I did think the Sanctuary in the Senedd event was very worthwhile. Members of the committee I chair were at that event and indeed spoke at that event, as did Mark Isherwood. Afterwards, it was interesting to meet a number of people representing different organisations that are involved in these areas of activity. So, I think we will take a keen interest in the sanctuary movement in Wales and indeed the steps that they consider appropriate to make Wales the welcoming country that I think we all want to see.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the committee Chair for his statement. I’m sure that this human rights inquiry will bring to light many areas of interest, not least to me, as the whole issue of human rights has tended to mystify me somewhat over the years. I recall reading a lot about the Human Rights Act 1998 prior to its implementation and, as I worked in a call centre at the time, I wondered what wonderful improvements in employment rights might accrue to my colleagues and me. But, I’m sad to relay that, once the Act came in, I didn’t notice any. So, I’m pleased to note that one of the objectives of this inquiry will be to assess the wider public’s perception of human rights, because I suspect that, for many people in Wales, human rights is a rather woolly concept that, as far as they are aware, has no real bearing on their lives. So, there may be a useful educational aspect to the inquiry, in which I look forward to participating.

John Griffiths AC: I thank Gareth Bennet for those points. I think it will be a valuable part of the committee’s work to get out and about to engage with people in Wales to get a better idea of what they think about human rights in Wales and how it impacts on their everyday life, as the Member has suggested. Of course, here, in the Assembly, we know that devolution has very much taken a rights-based approach to many issues. So, much of the public service delivery and the strategies and policy of Welsh Government is firmly based on that rights agenda. So, I think, as we conduct this inquiry, that will become apparent and, if we can make that more obvious to the people of Wales, as well as getting their views, I think that will be a valuable aspect of this inquiry.

Thank you very much.

7. 5. Plaid Cymru Debate: Eviction of Households with Children

We move on now to item 5 on the agenda, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on eviction of households with children. I call on Bethan Jenkins to move the motion—Bethan.

Motion NDM6190 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Calls on the Welsh Government to work with local authorities to ensure that no households with children face eviction in Wales.

Motion moved.

Bethan Sayed AC: [Interruption.] Making an entrance. [Laughter.]Between this debate and Christmas, 16 children will lose their homes because they will be evicted with their families from social housing. Welsh public services will spend over £600,000 dealing with the consequences of these evictions. These children are likely to face lifelong consequences on their health, their education and, therefore, their income levels. So, our motion today is simple: Wales should be a nation where children no longer face eviction and homelessness. Yet, according to the latest statistics, there are 792 families with children in temporary accommodation, and 84 of these families are in hostels. Yesterday, the BBC reported on the scandal of teenagers in bed and breakfasts and the figures show 27 families with children in B&Bs, which has almost doubled since the last quarter. Enough is enough.This is not the first time we’ve discussed homelessness, evictions and the protection of children in this Chamber. Perhaps if the statistics showed progress, this debate would be less urgent. But, last week showed that, far from progress, things are getting worse. Last week’s report on poverty by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation showed evictions by social landlords have increased in the majority of the UK, including an upward trend in Wales.Shelter Cymru’s research estimates that, in 2015-16, 500 children were evicted from social housing. That’s 500 children with an increased risk of health problems, an increased risk of lower education attainment and, therefore, an increased risk of becoming adults in poverty—and it needn’t have happened.The Welsh Government has been rightly praised for introducing a duty to prevent homelessness on local authorities with the early evidence showing some success. But I would like to remind Members that it was this Government that opposed Jocelyn Davies’s attempts to remove the Pereira test and opposed our attempts to extend priority need in housing to all under the age of 21 and care leavers up to the age of 25.However, legislation is only part of what we should be doing to prevent evictions and prevent homelessness. My colleagues will be elaborating on this point later, but there is a great deal more that the Welsh Government and local government should be doing to ensure that we have a no-evictions policy for children.Over 80 per cent of evictions are down to rent arrears. Most of these evictions, according to the recent Shelter Cymru research, are of people who are in work but are low paid with often fluctuating incomes. Most people in social housing and on housing benefit are in work and often in jobs that require hard graft and physical exertion. The real issue is: we have a benefit system incapable of understanding the patterns of work at the lower end. As the report put it, and I quote:‘Low income work patterns can involve frequent changes of circumstance, with hours and income sometimes changing monthly or even weekly. This results in difficulties and inconsistencies in the payment of Housing Benefit, putting tenancies at risk.’Solving this can actually be as simple as getting social landlords, housing solutions and housing benefits departments to communicate with each other.This leaves the remaining smaller proportion of evictions where there are more complex needs. This often involves mental health, substance misuse or other forms of chaotic lifestyle that mean rents can be missed or antisocial behaviour occurs. Many housing officers are not trained to spot or support people with mental health or other needs. Housing officers often misinterpret this as a refusal to engage.Where additional support needs lead to arrears, threats of eviction make things worse—I’ve seen it myself in my region. Tenants are often fearful of authority and feel they can’t win, so eviction notices themselves hamper progress, turning the relationship adversarial and making a solution less likely in the long run.The research also shows that social landlords can be inflexible and harsh when obtaining arrears—I quote from the report again:‘One tenant had to pay a shortfall of £130 a month, including £30 as “back up” to the landlord. She was told by the RSL that if she was even 1p in arrears again, they would take her back to court to get her evicted.’This demonstrates that many of those 500 evictions involving children last year could have been avoided.So, what about those families whose benefits are being paid on time but who still refuse to pay rent and commit antisocial behaviour that ruins the neighbourhood they live in? It’s fair enough for the 0.01 per cent of adults who fall into that category to face eviction as the last resort. A child living in such conditions would be regarded as extremely vulnerable and would probably have been taken into care long before the eviction notice had started anyway.So, if, after implementing all of our changes, a small proportion of those 500 children still face the eviction process and there was no evidence of neglect or abuse that would justify a care order, then we should instruct local authorities to use discretionary payments to maintain the tenancy.Shelter Cymru estimates that the cost of evictions and near misses is £24.3 million each year. This estimate does not include long-term health consequences or educational consequences for children. Considering that evictions happen when arrears are typically between £1,500 and £2,500, this means we’re spending far more enforcing evictions than the lost revenue would justify.For the extremely small number of families for whom a solution has not yet been found, the financial case alone justifies not proceeding with the eviction. For those who maintain we should keep evictions in the toolkit, I think they must answer where this £24 million will come from. I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions and to concluding this debate. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Diolch. I am grateful to Plaid Cymru for raising this issue, because I think it’s an extremely important one. I want to talk about two changes in the law that are likely to make the problem worse, not better: one is the universal credit and the other is the new immigration rules.I fully acknowledge, as indeed has Bethan Jenkins, that the Welsh Government has made supporting communities and tackling child poverty a priority, stating that early intervention is key to long-term health and well-being, and eviction of households with children—deliberately making children homeless—would undermine all of this. Housing associations and councils go to great lengths to avoid evicting people who fail to pay their rent or are creating antisocial nuisance to their neighbours. Since 2002, evictions by housing associations have gone down by 32 per cent, and 6 per cent in the last year, and that’s no doubt as a result of the housing Act, which requires everybody to do their best.Tenant support officers do their best to help people with chaotic lives get back on track, but we have to acknowledge that it doesn’t always work and that some people are deeply damaged by adverse childhood experiences. At the end of the day, there has to be a sanction if people (a) don’t pay their rent and (b) are causing absolute havoc to other people’s lives, because everybody is entitled to have the quiet enjoyment of their home. I’m afraid I deal too often with examples of families who are just creating absolute havoc, and causing huge emotional and mental distress to other people. So there has to be a sanction if people don’t play by the rules.But if you contrast that situation, where we make every effort to ensure that people’s tenancy doesn’t break down—private landlords are entitled to evict families under section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 without giving any reason at all. They simply have to give them 2 months’ notice. It doesn’t matter if they’re model tenants, they just have no right to stay in a place that their children call home. So for these families, there’s an endless churn of looking for a new place to live, and struggling to try and ensure that their children are continuing to attend schools that they’re settled into and are desperate not to lose their friends. They may well be on the council’s waiting list, along with—in Cardiff—9,000 other families, but they undoubtedly have a very long wait in most cases. This poses some extremely challenging problems for schools as they see new children arriving in year, and children having to change school time and again.It’s all extremely tragic. But the universal credit is going to make the problem a whole lot worse because—both residential landlords and social housing providers are very concerned about this—housing benefit at the moment can be paid direct to the landlord to avoid the money being spent on something else. That’s particularly important if someone in the household has a serious addiction. Universal credit in the future will only go to one adult in the household, and that will normally be the man—traditionally the main breadwinner—and this is a particularly worrying issue for families living in abusive relationships. Inevitably, as a result of that, the numbers being evicted in my view will go up, whatever local authorities or housing associations or, indeed, private landlords try and do about it. If people don’t pay their rent, that is what will happen.The other big threat is the Immigration Act 2016, which hasn’t yet been implemented in Wales, but once implemented it is bound to increase destitution. Indeed, that is what it has been designed to do. Currently, when an asylum claim is refused, asylum support ends unless you have children in your household, and then you are continued to be allowed to stay in the house that’s provided by the Home Office to allow you to appeal the decision. It’s important to remember here that a very significant number of asylum seekers who have been refused get it overturned on appeal once they’ve got proper legal representation to put their case. But the Immigration Act 2016, under the ‘right to rent’ checks, will make it an offence to rent to a person who’s disqualified as a result of their immigration status. What then is going to happen to these people, particularly these children? Potentially, we’ll be talking about families with children being turfed out of their temporary accommodation as soon as their initial application for refugee status is refused. Do we really want them ending up sleeping in the park? If and when—

Are you winding up, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: [Continues.]—the UK Government implements section 42, I assume it will then fall on local authorities to accommodate those children under the UN convention on the rights of children, unless, of course, they too fall under the section 42 exclusions from the right to rent. It would be useful to have the Government’s guidance on this matter, as there’s a huge burden, potentially, on local authorities coming along that we haven’t really considered before.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: There’s no doubt that eviction and having to live in temporary accommodation, as 792 families are currently doing, is a traumatic experience for a child. The impact of homelessness on children begins at birth. Children who are born to mothers who have been in B&B accommodation for some time are more likely to have a low birth weight. They are also more likely to lose out on their vaccinations. One in two mothers evicted from their homes experiences depression. The children themselves will suffer, and the impacts are numerous. Compared to other children, homeless children have four times as many respiratory diseases and four times the rate of asthma. They are five times as likely to suffer from diarrhoea and stomach upsets, six times more likely to have speech defects and stutters, and they are admitted to hospital urgently twice as often as their counterparts. There is also clear evidence of the impact on health of overcrowded homes, and overcrowding is, of course, common in temporary accommodation. Children in housing that is over capacity are 10 times as likely to suffer from meningitis than children in general, which as well as threatening life, obviously, can lead to the long-term impacts of hearing loss, the loss of sight and behavioural problems. There is a strong link between overcrowding in homes during childhood and the helicobacter pylori condition, which is one of the main causes of stomach cancer, and other conditions of the digestive system in adults, including chronic gastritis and peptic ulcers. Those living in very overcrowded homes during childhood have been found to be twice as likely to suffer from this disease when they reach 65 to 75 years of age.So, call a B&B or a hostel a temporary home if you like, but there is nothing temporary about the impact that that can have. In the context of the cruel bedroom tax, I would invite any Members who believe that under-occupancy is the major problem facing social housing to think very deeply about the facts that I’ve just listed. The long-term impact on mental health is also an issue. Homeless children are three to four times more likely to suffer mental health problems as compared to their peers, even a long time after they’ve been rehoused—even 12 months, maybe, after being rehoused. So, given the health impacts, is it any surprise that educational attainment also suffers? Homeless children in temporary accommodation on average miss 55 school days, which corresponds to 25 per cent of the school year, because of the problems that they experience in moving into or moving between temporary accommodation. And there is also the fact that temporary accommodation, more often than not, is inappropriate as a place for a child to learn, whether it’s in terms of carrying out formal schooling work or a more educational hobby, such as learning a musical instrument.Let’s turn to the financial costs now. The costs to public services in Wales are numerous. We could split them, perhaps, into a number of different categories—the direct costs of the eviction itself for the landlord; the broader direct cost of rehousing the individual or the family that has been evicted; but then you also have the broader costs to other public services. Shelter Cymru estimates that this cost is some £23.4 million per annum, and this, I have to say, is quite a conservative estimate that doesn’t include long-term health issues and educational costs for a child who has lived through that experience. Anyone who supports the practice of eviction does have to face the question of how you’re going to pay for this, because the fact is that any analysis of economics comes to the conclusion that it’s always a lot cheaper to prevent homelessness and to prevent evictions—even more so when we are talking about children with families, where the long-term cost for society in going down that route will be great.To conclude, therefore, I am shocked that we haven’t received a critical report from the audit office on the practice of evicting people. We are spending £468,000 per week on evicting people from their homes. Why not use that money for education?

David Melding AC: I thank Plaid Cymru for introducing this motion—very important. It is the season when traditionally we have looked at the needs of the most vulnerable in terms of housing, but I think it’s a lesson that should be considered all year round. As has been observed already, I think most evictions are undertaken by social landlords and Shelter estimates that over 900 social evictions a year are now occurring and they involve more than 500 children. So, it’s not surprising it occurs in this sector because, obviously, it caters for some of the most vulnerable people in society and many of those are on very low incomes. There’s a huge budgetary challenge, if nothing else, of living on a very low income, especially if you’ve got responsibility also for children. So, I do think that we need to focus on this and how tenants are supported.I must just refute some of the information that has been advanced about universal credit. It is not the ‘blunt instrument’ that Jenny Rathbone seems to think it is. It is there to take the sharp divide between the world of work and benefit and to incentivise work, and there are mechanisms that allow for the most vulnerable to have their rent paid directly. It is nothing about creating a system that makes that less likely and creating additional burdens for those living on low income. So, I think you need to be fair in your assessment of these reforms, even if you don’t agree with them in principle.We’ve heard that it’s rent arrears—I think the public would be quite surprised by this—that account for the overwhelming majority of evictions and not anti-social behaviour. And I think what is particularly stark is that over three quarters of evicted tenants are still homeless six months later.A couple of speakers have already talked about the costs, which are considerable, and those costs could be recycled I think into better spending on eviction prevention services in particular. I do, as other speakers have, commend Shelter’s report on these issues that was published, I think, in October. Although, as the report observes, there is in general an ‘any eviction is a failure’ culture, policies amongst social landlords vary and are often inconsistently applied and there should be a system of pre-action protocols that is the bedrock, really, of effective support for tenants. Can I also commend Shelter’s particular recommendations to the Minister, because I do think it’s a very practical report and it’s very, very well researched, but they do say that no court action should be taken before a fully preventative response has been exercised? I think that really has to be the absolute starting point.Tenant engagement is key and it’s often very difficult because when you get into arrears and you’re in difficulties, you don’t want to engage—you don’t open your mail, sometimes. There are some really difficult experiences when people get into that hole and don’t know how to get out of it. So, engagement is key and to trigger engagement with the threat of eviction is obviously not likely to lead to very positive engagement. But there does need also to be rigour in the process, as Jenny Rathbone said, because it’s a serious issue if you are not paying your rent.I think the relationship between engagement and tenants’ mental health is something that we need to be aware of and I was particularly interested in Shelter’s recommendation that all front-line housing teams should have a named mental health contact. I think that would be very, very useful. I also agree with the concluding recommendation that Shelter make that the Welsh Government should take responsibility for co-ordinating, or have a co-ordinating role in this area to ensure that landlords do provide support-based preventative services. At the very least, many of these evictions could be prevented, and certainly any eviction involving a child is a great tragedy. Thank you.

Siân Gwenllian AC: A number of people have talked about the cost of evicting families from their homes, and just to summarise, moving families out of their homes is a very expensive thing. It costs more than £24 million a year in direct costs, let alone the indirect costs for the health service and the education service. That’s nearly £0.5 million a week that is spent on evicting people, and Plaid Cymru believes that this is a waste of money and that it would be much better to use that money on education. That would be better and more beneficial to everybody—the children, the families and the community generally.Eighty per cent of the cases arise in the wake of rent arrears, and the background is often poverty, low income, uncertain employment and varying income from week to week, and on top of that, benefits that arrive late and are delayed as the process is delayed, and a lack of order in the welfare system generally. But there is a lack of consistency from area to area. This doesn’t have to happen. I disagree with Jenny Rathbone here; this doesn’t have to happen, particularly at the level that it’s happening at present. I’m pleased to see that there is variation across Wales; not every area is as bad as each other, and I’m pleased to say that Gwynedd and Ceredigion have lower rates than Cardiff and Wrexham, for example, in terms of evictions.In Gwynedd, the emphasis is on preventative work. There was an anti-poverty partnership, an umbrella body bringing together, four housing associations operating in the area, the county council and Citizens Advice—a partnership that has a focus on anti-poverty and working against the destructive agenda of the Westminster Government in terms of welfare reform. There was a fund that was established, which is a pot of money where it’s possible to give people a discretionary housing payment when they are more likely to face difficulty in terms of paying rent and so forth, and then face eviction possibly from their homes. This pot of money has been established after specific lobbying by the council for additional funds for rural areas, and this is money from Westminster. Good work is happening with the cohort of people who face hardship, and financial help is available to help with housing benefit payments from this fund. But there is also practical help available to people who face debt problems. There’s financial advice available, and putting people on the right track to avoid these problems. Ultimately, of course, there are fewer families who are evicted from their homes, and it is a proper last resort in these progressive areas.There are good practices in other housing associations across Wales, and what is important is to learn from those good practices. It is possible to avoid evicting people from their homes. Plaid Cymru believes that preventative work is much better, keeping families from being evicted from being evicted from their homes and then in turn avoiding the other outcomes that are related to losing your home for a child, for example avoiding going into the care of social services care, avoiding drug abuse, avoiding mental health problems, and avoiding falling behind at school. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 does put prevention or stopping the exacerbation of problems at the heart of the Assembly’s work, and it’s about time now for this to permeate through to other things that are happening on the ground, and to act on that. I do believe that this area does give a golden opportunity for that to happen—that the emphasis moves to the preventative work and avoiding these problems facing those who are evicted.

Thank you very much. I call the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m happy to support the motion, which reflects the work already being done by Welsh Government and councils and our shared commitment to take this further. Preventing homelessness and addressing its root cause remains a priority for this Government. This is particularly important where there are children in the household. Homelessness or the threat of it can have a devastating effect on adults, and a profound impact on children. It can create pressures that damage people’s health and well-being, which lead to children suffering from those adverse childhood experiences—it can affect them for the rest of their lives. This is an issue that should concern everyone and we see here that we’re deeply committed to tackling it.Many people will have seen and been moved by Channel 5’s recent production of ‘Slum Britain: 50 Years On’. Although I’m grateful that things are improving in Wales we are well aware that there is much more to be done. Evictions from housing are a significant contributory factor leading directly to homelessness, and these were positive overall trends in 2015, with declining possessions, claims and orders, and falls in both mortgage repossessions and eviction warrants. Unfortunately, there was an increase, however, of 8 per cent in private landlord repossession orders, which we need to address.Our reform of homelessness legislation in Wales—the 2014 Act—has created a new framework that ensures every household will be helped both in terms of preventing them becoming homeless wherever possible, and in terms of assisting those who do lose their homes. Local authorities have duties to help people who are threatened with homelessness due to eviction or for any other reason, and they’re expected to intervene as early as possible. It’s vital that work goes on with support agencies and landlords to identify people at risk across all sectors, particularly if they have children.There needs to be greater recognition of how and why people become homeless so that potential problems can be addressed, Llywydd, and help provided at the earliest possible stages. We need agencies across the public sector to work better together, effective housing solutions, and the necessary support to help people live as independently as possible and be able to sustain their accommodation. The support needed includes many areas within my portfolio, including financial advice, community safety and the private rented sector. Where families with children are threatened with eviction, there must, of course, be close working with social services to ensure the needs of children are safeguarded.We must promote awareness of services that can help people if they get into difficulty. One of the most common causes of homelessness is rent arrears, which has been mentioned by many today. This is why we’re developing a national advice strategy to connect people to independent advice where and when this is needed. The funding we provide to Shelter Cymru and to Citizens Advice Cymru ensures people can get specialist advice to help them keep their homes.Shelter Cymru recently published a report on access to and sustaining social tenancies. They identified some failings in the way organisations work together to avoid evictions. Social landlords should only use eviction as a very last resort, and after every possible alternative has been exhausted. As I’ve said, eviction is most often the result of rent arrears and the intensive support and advice services should be engaged assertively to rescue the tenancy. We’re following up on this report and its recommendations with stakeholders to ensure everything possible is being done to minimise evictions and prevent homelessness taking place.Llywydd, we’re also going to have to work even harder to mitigate the issues of welfare reform. The welfare reform changes that Jenny mentioned, introduced to date, have already generated new pressures that can lead to homelessness. I’m concerned that these pressures will grow further with the gradual roll-out of universal credit and the additional restrictions placed on the benefit entitlements of 18 to 35-year-olds. Further welfare reform by the UK Government will increase the risk of families losing their homes. These changes will put even more pressure on households living on a low income. Independent evidence suggests it will place even more children at risk of poverty and homelessness.Preventing homelessness also needs to become even more embedded within the planning and delivery of housing-related support services. The Supporting People programme will also continue to be at the heart of our commitment to help vulnerable groups. I’m looking forward to the programme making an even greater contribution towards preventing homelessness, including an expectation that anyone at risk of eviction is offered support to retain their tenancy. We all recognise that evictions cannot always be avoided however, particularly in the private rented sector, and we need to ensure people are helped to find alternative accommodation as soon as possible. This isn’t always easy and that’s why we’ve committed to an ambitious target of providing a further 20,000 affordable homes during this Government.Llywydd, in particular at this time of year, around Christmas, we should be very aware of people losing their homes—potentially losing their homes—and in particular children. I’m sure all Members of this Chamber are very committed to tackling this very issue. We will continue to focus on those issues that affect the well-being of families and children, including financial resilience, through employment, the promotion of mental health and a legal and policy framework that ensures everything is done to avoid these evictions. We will be supporting this motion today.

Thank you very much. I call on Bethan Jenkins to reply to the debate. Bethan.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch and thank you, all, for contributing to this debate today. I think, as many of you have said, it’s not just a debate for us to have at the times when we might be feeling that this might be more acute, it’s at times when we need to discuss this throughout the year and make sure that the problems are eradicated.We did hear from Jenny Rathbone first of all and I do agree with you with regard to universal credit and the pressures that will come from the immigration Act. I would be very concerned when someone’s status is potentially refused how they would then be able to cope in circumstances that are already difficult, actually—they don’t have a salary, they don’t have recourse to the benefits system like we do, so I would be even more worried in those extreme circumstances. But I would say, with regard to your comments on eviction statistics, that there was a substantial rise since 2011, which doesn’t tally with what you said earlier. And, they’re often not used as a last resort, otherwise there wouldn’t be such discrepancies between different areas of Wales. If it was being used as a last resort, I think we would see the statistics much lower than they currently are. Diolch yn fawr i Rhun ap Iorwerth am eich cyfraniad chi hefyd. Rwy’n credu ei bod hi’n bwysig ac yn eithaf poenus i glywed yr hyn roeddech chi’n ei ddweud o ran sut y mae’n effeithio ar iechyd pobl ifanc mewn cymaint o wahanol ffyrdd; nid yn unig o ran iechyd meddwl, ond o ran agweddau eraill nad oeddwn i’n bersonol yn ymwybodol ohonynt. Roeddwn i’n credu bod eich sylwadau chi’n taro tant o ran bod rhai pobl yn aros mewn gwestai neu B&Bs am ran o’r amser, ond nid yw’r effeithiau hynny dros dro; mae’n effaith bywyd i berson ifanc sydd wedi bod yn rhan o hynny. Rwy’n credu, wrth gwrs, fod yn rhaid inni roi’r arian yna nid yn unig i mewn i addysg, ond i’r sector gyhoeddus yn gyffredinol. Os ydym ni’n gallu rhoi arian i mewn i bethau sydd yn mynd i helpu ein plant ifanc, yna dyna sut y dylem ddefnyddio’r arian hwnnw.David Melding made very valuable comments too. I think, obviously like me, you’ve read the Shelter report, but it does inform much of what we have to say on this. Obviously, when we talk about budgetary challenges for people on low incomes, I will always refer back to the importance of financial education and inclusion, and hopefully the new financial inclusion strategy will say something about that. It’s not just about the fact that people, potentially, will have less money, it’s how they manage what they have. I’m not saying it’s just people on low incomes who face that challenge, but if you do have less money, it may be, then, that they need more support on how to do that so that they can potentially not face that eviction in those very extreme circumstances.As you say, pre-action protocols are definitely needed. We’re all Assembly Members here. In relation to tenant engagement, I think you are absolutely right. I’ve seen letters from constituents where they’ve had those warnings at the first stage, and then they actually don’t want to engage at all and they turn off totally from what they see, then, as a sort of policeman figure in their lives. So, if we can change that around, then I think we’re all winning as a society in that regard.Diolch i Sian Gwenllian am eich sylwadau chi, hefyd. Mae’n ddrud iawn i wneud hyn, ac felly rwy’n credu mai dyna pwynt Plaid Cymru drwy roi’r drafodaeth yma ymlaen, mai’r gost o gael gwared ar bobl o’u tai yw’r peth mwyaf ‘problematic’ i deuluoedd ac wedyn mae’n cymryd hyd at chwe mis i’r bobl hynny ffeindio tŷ arall. Wrth gwrs, rydym ni eisiau clodfori’r hyn mae Cyngor Gwynedd yn ei wneud o ran ei waith, yn gweithio’n ataliol gyda phobl fel Shelter a Chyngor ar Bopeth, ac rwy’n credu y dylai bob llywodraeth leol edrych ar sut mae gwneud pethau sydd efallai’n fwy creadigol, neu’n fwy unigryw yn y maes yma, er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn gallu cael cefnogaeth ariannol pan maen nhw yn y sefyllfaoedd caled hynny yn eu bywydau.Finally, thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for your statement. I’m sure we all recognise that there’s more that can be done, and we shouldn’t be complacent in this regard. I heard you, quite a lot, describing the problem; I think we need to actually be looking at more solutions now in this regard. If there are lots of areas that are acting differently in relation to evictions of families with children, then we need to really put those solutions in place. You say that local authorities have duties and are expected to intervene as soon as possible, but, clearly, in some instances that’s not what’s happening. We need to understand why that’s not happening and how we can change their perceptions as to how they engage with people in their area.I do welcome the national advice strategy and the specialist advice that Shelter and others give. I think they play a massively important role in providing those services where other services are not able to do that job.Universal credit and welfare reform should worry us all, and I think it’s a ticking time bomb. We may be here next year discussing even more difficult situations than we are this year as a result of those changes. I urge you as Cabinet Secretary, therefore, to make sure that you have clear lines of communication with the UK Government to make sure that we can protect Welsh people and that children are not evicted and not faced with feeling that they are second-class citizens in Wales when they shouldn’t be treated as such. They need to have the same respect and the same opportunities in life as anybody else. If their educational attainment, if their mental health, if they are more likely to have cancer than other young children, I think that should be something that we all should care about and worry about here in Wales.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: PISA

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 3 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt.

We now move on to item 6 on the agenda, which is the Welsh Conservative debate on the Programme for International Student Assessment, and I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.

Motion NDM6188 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes Wales’ performance in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation andDevelopment’s 2015 Programme for International Student Assessment, whichwere published on the 6th December 2016.2. Regrets that scores in reading, maths and science were lower in 2015 than in2006.3. Calls upon the Welsh Government to develop a clear strategy with measurabletargets and a clear timetable to ensure improvement in PISA 2018.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to move this motion today, and I want to formally do so on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group.Last week, Wales received news of its results in the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment, or PISA as it is more commonly referred to. In advance of the publication of those results, the Welsh Government worked very hard to downplay expectations of any progress or improvement and, of course, once they were published, we all saw why. Those results, yet again, saw Wales languishing in the bottom half of the global education league table and they reconfirmed Wales’s shameful status as the worst performing school system in the UK—a title that we have held ever since our first set of PISA results back in 2006.But what really makes these results all the more depressing than those of previous years is that PISA 2015 saw Wales perform worse than we did back in 2006 on every single measure—worse in literacy, worse in maths and worse in science. The results mark a decade of underachievement and a failure to make any progress, but that’s not the half of it. The results also showed us that there’s been a sustained decline in science skills since 2006, especially for the highest achieving pupils. A third of Welsh pupils were deemed to be low achievers in one or more subject—the highest of any of the UK nations. Welsh reading scores were on a par with Hungary and Lithuania, and pupils in England were seen to be three times more likely to be high achievers in science, reading and maths than here in Wales.Whilst there was some comfort in that there was a smaller gap in achievement between pupils from the wealthiest and poorest backgrounds here in Wales, PISA actually suggests that this is mainly due to those more advantaged pupils simply not performing as well as they ought to be. Welsh pupils are doing more learning outside the school day than their English counterparts and yet still performing more poorly.A litany of failure—failure by successive Welsh Labour-led Governments to raise our game, failure by education Ministers to turn things around, and failure by our First Minister to provide the first-class, world-beating education system that he promised them when he came to office back almost a decade ago. This is the sort of system, of course, that our young people deserve.But, unfortunately, it’s very, very clear, from the results that were published last week, that the Welsh Labour-led Government that we’ve had here in Wales have not been getting it right. It’s for this reason that we’ll be voting for the Plaid amendment this afternoon, which believes that the failures are as a direct result of 16 years of inadequate Labour education policies. Although, I must say, I think it’s a bit rich of Plaid Cymru to try to pin all the blame on the Labour Party, when they were actually in coalition with the Labour Party for four of those years in the last decade. Now they’re crying crocodile tears, but it would have been better, frankly, if Plaid Cymru had made a bit more of a difference around the Cabinet table when they had a Deputy First Minister and many other Cabinet Ministers. So, why don’t you take some of the blame today when you stand up and make your speech? I’ll be very interested to hear what you’ve got to say. You need to acknowledge your role in those failures and apologise for it.Previous poor PISA results, of course, have given rise to lots of tough talking. We’ve heard it all in this Chamber: we’ve heard promises to do better from the First Minister and previous Cabinet Secretaries, yet, in spite of this, the results published last week and the Welsh Government’s response to them do nothing, I’m afraid, so far, to give my party any confidence that we’ll see improvements any time soon. Instead, we’ve been told that Wales needs to hold its course and that we need to give reforms a bit more time to bed in. But the problem is that the Welsh Government has had a decade since similar results back in 2006 and yet we have seen failure upon failure to deliver the sea change in results that we all want to see.Now what many commentators simply cannot understand is how it is that countries like Poland have been able to turn their education systems around in less than a decade, but the Welsh Government appears not to have been able to do so. Poland, of course, is a nation that had similar PISA results back in 2000 to ours in 2006. Yet it managed to improve its results by 2009 to become one of the top-ranking nations. Of course, they not only got up there in 2009, but they’ve maintained that performance ever since. They’ve managed to do so in a country that is larger—much larger—than Wales and where making changes is arguably much more difficult and, of course, they have a similar post-industrialised nation that they are dealing with.But, of course, while Poland was making rapid progress in the first decade of the twenty-first century, Wales was looking elsewhere for inspiration under the previous education Minister, Jane Davidson—of course, she was looking towards Cuba. You couldn’t really make it up, could you? But that is where she was seeking inspiration for the future of the Welsh education system. Now, fortunately, we’ve moved on since G.I. Jane and, instead, now we’ve had other Ministers in place.The current round of reforms to our curriculum, of course, were largely inspired by a nation that is somewhat closer to home—Scotland. It’s now six years since Scotland introduced its new school curriculum, much of which Wales is now seeking to emulate. But let’s just consider the results of their reforms for a moment. In last week’s PISA results, Scotland recorded its worst ever results on record—worst results in literacy, maths and science. Its ranking as a nation has been falling like a stone—from eleventh on the PISA ranking for reading in 2006 to twenty-third last week, from eleventh to twenty-fourth in maths, and from tenth to nineteenth in science. The proportion of Scottish children deemed to be performing below standard in science and reading has spiked since the last PISA tests in 2012, with the scores for both boys and girls dropping significantly, except, amongst girls, for maths. So, it’s no wonder that the Scottish education Secretary, John Swinney, has suggested there that the system is in need of ‘radical reform’—they were his words, not mine.The Cabinet Secretary and others will no doubt attempt to suggest that Wales’s reforms are very different from those in Scotland. I accept that there are some differences. But no matter who we’re trying to kid, no matter who we’re trying to reassure, we know that our reforms are similar and that the author of those reforms is the very same author.I’m not arguing that we need to abandon the reshaping of our curriculum here in Wales or that we shouldn’t continue with some of the other measures and actions that have been taken in the past around the literacy and numeracy framework. We don’t need to abandon those. But what is clear from Scotland is that these things alone are not going to deliver the sort of change in PISA rankings that needs to be delivered here in Wales. We cannot completely ignore these facts and carry on as usual. In our opinion, there needs to be a period of reflection and to ask honestly whether the Welsh Government’s planned reforms really are the best vehicle to move Wales forward, particularly given the Scottish experience. We believe, Cabinet Secretary, that it’s time to push the pause button on the curriculum reforms and take time to take stock of where we are.I acknowledge that there’s a great deal of goodwill and support for curriculum reform and the sort of approach that we’re taking here in Wales, but we all—all of us in this Chamber and all of us who have a stake in our education here in Wales—need to be confident that the reforms that we are pitching for, and that we are aiming for, are going to make the sort of improvements that our schools and our education system need to see. I’m afraid that the evidence from Scotland suggests that that reform alone, even in conjunction with some of the other actions being taken by the Welsh Government, is not going to be enough.Now, I’ve seen the Government amendment today. It asks us to note, and I quote,‘the OECD’s reflections following its return visit to review the Welsh education system that many things are in place now that are putting Wales on a more promising track.’But I ask this question: how on earth can Assembly Members note the OECD’s reflections when they haven’t been shared with us? We are yet to see written reports. We are yet to see any conclusions. We are yet to see any findings or recommendations that have emerged from that snapshot review. So, it’s a bit premature to ask us to note those things if we’ve been unable to have any sight of those things. That’s why we’ll be voting against the Welsh Government’s amendment today.So, instead—just to be clear—what we’re calling for from the Welsh Government today is a clear strategy with measurable targets that will sit alongside these other pieces of work, which are already ongoing, to turn this performance around—and not by 2021; we want to see some improvements by the next set of PISA results in 2018. If Poland was able to do it, then I don’t see why Wales can’t either. We don’t want to just see improvements in one subject. We want to see all three of the PISA subjects—science, maths and reading—making progress. That’s what our young people, that’s what our children, deserve: nothing less than that sort of improvement. We need some very clear targets that, unlike previous targets, aren’t scrapped, but targets that are actually adhered to. We saw Leighton Andrews make a clear target that we should be in the top 20 by 2016. We’re not. So, it was abandoned before we realised the opportunity to even hold Leighton accountable to that target, because, of course, he’s not here. That target was abandoned by his successor, Huw Lewis, who replaced it with yet another target: this time to score over 500 in the PISA test, but not until 2021, which was conveniently after he had stepped down from the National Assembly.So, we can’t keep kicking this thing down the road for other people to deal with in future Assemblies. We need to be accountable here in this particular Assembly to make sure that we make progress by 2018, and, yes, then again by 2021. We need policies to be introduced that are going to allow successful schools to thrive and to grow—those schools that are popular and that are going to work in partnership with the professions, the teaching professions and all the other stakeholders in our schools—to deliver the sea change that we need to see in terms of PISA. We’re not going to do that unless we’ve got a strategy with a timetable and clear targets.So, our poor performance—let’s be clear—cannot continue. It will have consequences if we don’t deal with it, particularly for our economy and for future generations. We believe that we need to be ambitious and bold with our solutions, looking to the sort of excellence and the sort of achievement and the ground that has been made elsewhere in places like Poland and other nations around the world. We’re looking to you, Cabinet Secretary, for action, and for this reason I urge Members to support our motion today.

Thank you very much. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendments 1 and 3 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point 3 and renumber accordingly:Believes that this is a result of 16 years of inadequate Labour education policies.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at end of motion:Urges the Welsh Government to pursue reforms to the curriculum, initial teacher education and teachers’ professional development.

Amendments 1 and 3 moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I move the amendments officially? PISA, of course, unfortunately, has reminded us once again that Wales has performed worst of the UK countries, that the scores in terms of reading, maths and science are worse in Wales than they were 10 years ago, and that Wales is further behind the UK average in those three areas as compared with 2006.And, as we say in one of our amendments, that shows the record of Labour—there has been an unbroken line since devolution of Labour education Minister after Labour education Minister, and, 10 years after that first failure, we are still waiting for the necessary reforms to be put in place. I have to say that some of the demands made recently to repatriate powers to Westminster and overturn devolution for education actually miss the point entirely. Because, if a football team is at the bottom of the league, then you don’t move stadium or ask to play in another league. What you do, of course, is sack the manager and change your players, and managers usually—[Interruption.] No, I’m not going to take your intervention; I have a lot to get in in five minutes. But managers in that situation usually take responsibility for the situation, something that the First Minister, of course, has refused to do. Yes, he has said that the results are disappointing. Yes, he’s said that he’s confident that they will be better next time. But, of course, that’s exactly what he said the last time, and I have reminded the Cabinet Secretary that, the last time we had these disappointing results, she asked the First Minister, in 2012, if he was ashamed of the results. Well, shouldn’t he be even more ashamed this time, because of the failure once again?Yes, there are more fundamental reforms in the pipeline. It’s regrettable that it’s taken 10 years to get to this point. We know that it will take four or five years before those reforms are completed, never mind, of course, seeing the impact that one would hope to see in terms of the PISA results. One does feel, in such a situation, that this is a last throw of the dice. So, it is crucial that we do ensure that the right changes are put in place. It’s not necessarily a quick change, I accept that, but we have to be confident that we are on the right track. And it has to be a change that is owned by the sector if it’s to succeed. And that is something I’ve already raised a number of times with the Cabinet Secretary in the context of these reforms, so I won’t rehearse those issues here.But, as we’ve heard, one can take some hope from other nations and look at the record of a country like the Republic of Ireland, which has performed very positively this time. Estonia is another nation that I’ve read about this week that has turned around their performance. We don’t have to emulate Singapore and China and move to a culture of working unacceptably long hours. Finland has some of the shortest study hours, both in school and out of school, and yet they are performing well. It’s not necessarily funding that’s the solution, either. There are countries that spend more on education and don’t perform as well, and there are countries that spend less and perform better. One lesson that I take from the Estonian context—and it’s interesting to note that teachers there usually have a Master’s degree, and of course Plaid Cymru has consistently said that, if we want the best education system, then we have to get the best educators, and, in our manifesto and since then, of course, we have been explaining how we want to do more to attract the best candidates into teaching and ensure that continuing professional development for educators in order to create that culture of continuous improvement. We talk, of course, about the status of the profession, improving training, giving more freedom and responsibility to teachers in deciding what they teach. We talked about creating a teachers’ premium, too, for all teachers who have a Master’s degree in educational practice or a comparable level of skills. That teachers’ premium would assist in attracting and retaining the most talented in the teaching profession, and also retain good teachers in the classroom, because we are losing too many of those in the current climate.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Now, they say that 30 points in terms of PISA scores corresponds to a year of education. If that is the case, and I don’t doubt it, then Wales now is almost a year behind our attainment in 2006 in terms of science. So, given that measurement, Wales has fallen back a year in 10 years, and that, unfortunately, is the legacy of education for Labour in Wales.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 2—Jane HuttDelete point 3 and replace with:Notes the OECD’s reflections following its return visit to review the Welsh education system that many things are in place now that are putting Wales on a more promising track.Recognises that to drive up standards there must be an emphasis on leadership,teaching excellence, equity and wellbeing for learners.

Amendment 2 moved.

Kirsty Williams AC: Formally.

Formally. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd, and I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon and highlight some of the ways I think we can help our learners achieve better standards in Welsh schools.There’s no doubt that we are all extremely concerned and disappointed by Wales’s PISA figures last week. Despite the hard work and professionalism of teachers across Wales, the figures show that Wales is simply not where we’d like it to be in terms of international benchmarks.Now, I accept that the Welsh Government is pursuing a reforming agenda in education and that changes are taking place in terms of reshaping the national curriculum and qualifications. However, there is still work to be done to create the right environment for learners in Wales to provide stability and therefore improve standards.I want to concentrate my contribution this afternoon on the importance of stability in our education system and the key role local authorities also play in improving standards in our schools. The Welsh Government, of course, needs to provide strategic leadership in improving standards and we must see a clear strategy being developed and measurable targets being set. But we must also see that leadership trickling down to local authorities, who are ultimately responsible for delivering education in our communities.The Cabinet Secretary will be very aware of the shambles of a reorganisation that we’ve seen taking place across Pembrokeshire. It goes without saying that the key objective of any school reorganisation plan must be to improve education standards for children and young people. If not, then what exactly is the point? In Pembrokeshire, there have been countless consultations on school reorganisations across the county and the whole process is not only deeply worrying for learners and parents, but it clearly has an effect on educational outcomes.Given the emotive nature of school reorganisation, even if the closure or reorganisation doesn’t eventually materialise, announcing such proposals with apparent disregard for the standard of education provided sends a negative message to pupils and parents that cutting costs is a priority and retaining quality is not. We’ve seen examples in the past where good schools have closed and it’s that sort of action that does nothing to protect or enhance school standards. Indeed, the constant to-ing and fro-ing of which schools will close and which will stay open has created such an instability for communities in my own constituency that it’s no wonder Wales isn’t achieving better results against international benchmarks.In a report published in May 2012, Estyn stated that—and I quote:‘Any school reorganisation strategy should set out to improve standards. School reorganisation programmes should be primarily about school improvement rather than a resource management exercise that is separate from the interests of learners.’That very report recommended that the Welsh Government work with local authorities to develop and promote good practice in evaluating the impact of school reorganisation schemes. Well, I’m afraid that the Welsh Government simply hasn’t done enough to evaluate the impact of school reorganisation in places like Pembrokeshire and the effect the changes would have on learner outcomes.School reorganisations, like in my area, that have been complicated and worrying for local communities are a significant part of the problem. Surely, the Welsh Government in future must play much more of a role in overseeing school reorganisations because Governments can’t allow local authorities to ignore parents, teachers and pupils’ wishes and to issue consultation after consultation— which has taken years in our case in Pembrokeshire—while, in the meantime, children’s education and future are being put at risk. No wonder we’re not improving standards.There are plenty of other levers at the Welsh Government’s disposal that would make a real difference to learner outcomes. I fully accept that the Welsh Government has taken some steps in terms of school leadership at head level and senior management, but perhaps there’s merit in also looking at the role of school governors, who also have a role to play in terms of promoting high standards. Indeed, perhaps the Cabinet Secretary could outline in her response to the debate whether that is something she is currently considering and what her assessment is of the role of school governors in helping to deliver better standards in our schools.Llywydd, all Members here were disappointed with last week’s PISA results. Ultimately, we all want to see the same thing: a flourishing education system that delivers for our learners and results in an improvement in educational outcomes. I don’t envy the Cabinet Secretary’s position, because I think we all recognise that the scope of work that’s needed to improve educational standards is significant. It comes by firstly acknowledging where there are weaknesses in our system and then identifying ways in which we can change that system for the better.We, on this side of the Chamber, will work constructively with the Cabinet Secretary to implement meaningful solutions to help deliver real outcomes for our learners and, therefore, for our society. I therefore urge Members to support our motion.

David Rees AC: Can I start by saying education clearly is one of the most important gifts we can give to our children? As such, we must give it in the right manner and ensure it gets there well. The Programme of International Student Assessment—as Darren said, the long term for the short PISA, as we always know it—provides us with a comparator for student performance in reading, maths and science, but we should also note that it’s actually not about imparting the knowledge that the tests are about, it’s about how we use that knowledge. It’s about the critical thinking, the investigation, the solutions, the way we communicate those solutions; it’s a wider picture than just imparting knowledge. And perhaps we need to look at that aspect of our education system when we do our teaching.But before I comment further on, perhaps, PISA, I don’t want to lose sight of some of the achievements we actually have done, because I haven’t yet heard some of the facts: that last year we had record levels of GCSE performance here in Wales. In my own constituency, in Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council, record levels of GCSE results have been achieved. These are results that demonstrate our students are delivering to the qualifications that we aspire them to achieve, and they are achieving qualifications that will get them into placements for jobs or further and higher education. And we are seeing those standards increase. And it seems that we have taken PISA—and I’m not going to decry it—but we seem to have taken PISA as the be-all and end-all, without considering, actually, that there are other things we are delivering. Let’s recognise those things as well.I also want to, perhaps, talk about some of the programmes we’ve put into place. I will look at Schools Challenge Cymru. We’ve seen that programme run and it has been successful, and I want to give credit to Huw Lewis, who saw it going through. I must say I’m a little bit disappointed that we’re seeing it come to the end of its life, and I would ask the Cabinet Secretary whether she will look at the next phase, or another phase of that programme, because it has delivered in areas. I think it helps the teachers who are identified through the categorisation programme, in schools where there is a lower, red categorisation, to be able to benefit from the experience and expertise, perhaps, of others. And I think it’s important that we ensure that, where there’s good practice, we share that good practice. And that’s what it was doing.I also wanted to highlight the fact, of course, that the attainment gap between the free school meals and non-free school meals has narrowed, and I think Darren did mention that PISA did actually spot that. We give, perhaps, different reasons for it, because of what PISA said, but that gap is narrowing, and there are achievements. What we tend to forget, sometimes, when we talk about A* and A* to C, is that people who attained a D or an E have gained something that they may never have expected, if teaching is good. We are raising the platform. We forget the value added given to many of our pupils in our education system, and that those pupils are actually exceeding their potential because of some of the teaching they get. We often forget that. For far too long, we have worked on the point of how many A*s does a school get, not what did the child achieve, has the child realised their potential, and have they exceeded their potential. And sometimes the outcomes we measure aren’t always the best things. We need to look at how we do that, because we are in a world where there are varying levels, and we need to focus on all levels of the education system and see what we can ensure can be achieved by our children.I’ve got time, so I’ll go back to PISA, which I know has already been mentioned. And I agree with everybody; those PISA results are not acceptable. They are well below what we would want, they do not put Wales where we want it to be in the global market, and they remind us of the journey we still have to take in that area. And the journey, actually, is similar to those in other UK nations, all of which saw their scores go down in at least two of those subjects last week. I do believe we’re making progress in this area, and we did see the largest increase in the UK in maths, for example. Could that be down to the numeracy framework that was introduced? The literacy and numeracy frameworks came in as a consequence of some of the decisions based on the 2009 and 2012 results. So, we are introducing programmes.Now we also—. Darren, actually, perhaps rubbished, in a sense—at least that’s what I felt it was—the changes to the curriculum. Now, I believe Donaldson is the right way, because it is changing that way of critical review of thinking, of problem solving, of looking at how we can take knowledge and use it. That’s what Donaldson is about, and I think that’s the curriculum for the twenty-first century. [Interruption.] Of course, Darren.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you; I’m grateful to you for taking the intervention. I didn’t rubbish the new curriculum that we’re trying to introduce in Wales. I just asked us to pause and reflect on whether similar curriculum reforms to those that have taken place in Scotland, which have failed to deliver against the PISA measure, are the right approach here in Wales. I think we need to reflect seriously on that.

David Rees AC: I think the reflection and consideration that was taken by Donaldson—. I think it’s important that we, when we discussed it—I did say in the discussion we’ve had that most people actually accepted that Donaldson was the way forward at the time. I want to see us go forward.I’m conscious of the time, Llywydd, so to finish: we have a clear direction of travel, with an emphasis on leadership, an emphasis on teacher excellence, the well-being of learners—let’s not forget that—the equity for our learners, a collective responsibility and delivering a twenty-first century curriculum so our young people can live in a twenty-first century world. Those who know education know that such policies do not happen overnight; they take time to bed in and we want to ensure that they have that time. So, I would follow the advice of the OECD. I would suggest we stay the course and continue our journey to ensure that our children and our grandchildren in the future will have a good education system.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Firstly, I must say it gives me no pleasure to be contributing in a debate where we once again discuss the Welsh Government’s spectacular failure to deliver a first-class education system in Wales. After a broken promise from the First Minister and his Labour Government, education in Wales once again finds itself in dire straits. After 10 years of broken promises, a decade of underachievement has left Wales behind every other country in the United Kingdom, with Wales having the greatest proportion of low-achieving pupils across the United Kingdom.In science, Wales lags behind the rest in terms of low achievers, with the greatest proportion of 15-year-olds operating below level 2. In maths, Wales remains a critical underperformer compared to our friends in England, Northern Ireland and Scotland. Sadly, in last week’s PISA results—the Programme of International Student Assessment—the smallest countries like Singapore and others were at the top of the world, and look where we are. The fifth richest economy and we are below 10. We are not even in the top 10. Sadly, last week’s PISA results show that 23 per cent of 15-year-olds were defined as low achievers in maths—nearly a quarter of students. Presiding Officer, it is simply unacceptable. Wales’s average maths score is also significantly lower than the scores of the rest of the United Kingdom with a difference of around 15 test points—equivalent to around half a year of additional schooling—while in reading, Wales’s performance again falls dramatically short of other UK nations. It is a scandalous state of affairs where we now sit on a par with countries such as Hungary and Lithuania.Today, thanks to the Welsh Government, over one in five Welsh students lack the required reading skill to function in the workplace. This stark statistic emphasises the sheer scale of challenge facing young people in Wales, not just in their education, but in developing the necessary skills suitable for our employers in Wales. When speaking to employers in various industries, they frequently raise concerns with me that they struggle to find graduates with the right skills or right work experience. With the latest PISA results in Wales, you can see why our education system must improve. Firstly, we must create a society founded on high literacy. This is vitally important in driving positive economic reforms. At present, the worrying trend is that the reading of Welsh pupils is preventing such progress. Delivering a first-class education system will have hugely positive consequences on our economy and it is crucial this is recognised by the Cabinet Secretary and Welsh Government together. That’s why it is vital the results are not downplayed and they are tackled head-on by the Welsh Government.In my own region of South Wales East, we already have elected councillors from the Labour Party in Newport saying that these results have to be taken with a—their words—pinch of salt. What a joke. They probably need some PISA exams also. [Laughter.] [Interruption.] Let’s be clear, such rhetoric is unacceptable and we cannot allow a lost generation of Welsh students. We are losing a generation here, Minister. Your change of curriculum—definitely there should be some sort of investment in our teachers. Because what other nations that have achieved in the education system have done—they have invested in their teachers. First class degree holders only can teach to the teachers, and—I haven’t got time, David, but go on. [Laughter.]

David Rees AC: I do appreciate you giving the time. Do you therefore recognise that the introduction of a Master’s in professional practice for teachers by the Welsh Government is the right step forward to ensure that the qualifications at the levels you’re talking about are actually there?

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I agree with you that teachers should be highly qualified to teach other teachers. It’s a very good old saying: what you pay, you get. A car is a car, a Rolls-Royce is a car and a Mini is a car. You pay the best price, and you get the best result. Anyway, I agree: we must invest in our teachers. And ignoring these results, putting our heads into the sand, will only amplify the standards we have witnessed in the Welsh education system.Presiding Officer, Welsh Government have been in charge of education for over 17 years. There are no excuses, there is no hiding place either. Pupils, parents and teachers across Wales deserve better, and only Conservatives can deliver it.

Mark Reckless AC: Oscar—on fine form this afternoon. I suppose, in joining this debate, when we had the PISA statement, I was a little shy of being overly critical because of the way the statement was framed. Yes the results were bad, yes the trend was declining, but the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development had issued this report that told us to stay the course, and we shouldn’t worry about that and we should just keep ploughing along with what the Welsh Government was doing. It was only following that session that I found there wasn’t a report, or at least not as it was suggested. I found this report, ‘Improving Schools in Wales—An OECD Perspective’, which was from 2014, and 143 pages long. I think the OECD is a little slow with some of these reports. These are the 2015 PISA results we’re looking at. It’s the first time they’re been administered by computer. I think it would be helpful if the OECD could perhaps get out their comparisons on a more speedy basis, and they did. But on the 2014 report, I wonder, actually, whether this report, or whatever the communication is that Welsh Government’s received, is really much different. It has a degree of balance in what it says—I’ll take an intervention.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. There is a report, it just hasn’t been published yet. Will you acknowledge that whatever the challenges we face, your solution of reintroducing grammar schools in Wales is simply going to make matters worse?

Mark Reckless AC: Our policy on grammar schools is one of a number of policies. I think it is really unacceptable for the Welsh Government to use, as a shield for this—I think everyone agrees—deeply unsatisfactory set of PISA results, a report that it will not share. How can we sensibly respond to the statement, or take part in this debate on even terms with the Government, if they have a report they cite in defence that other people can’t refer to because it hasn’t been published? Now, the 2014 report had a series of balanced comments; it had positives and it have negatives. I note in this amendment today, the best the Government can say is:‘many things are in place now that are putting Wales on a more promising track.’And I’m sure they can cherry-pick and when it’s published we will see some positive comments, but I suspect there are also a great deal of negative comments.I noted the comments from Sir Michael Wilshaw, the head of Ofsted in England, when these results came out. He said that Scotland and Wales were dragging down the UK performance. But he went on and said that Welsh education is paying the price for abandoning standard assessment tests. He says:‘I remember when the Welsh Government took away all the accountability measures that we have in England—SATs, testing and so on—and that was disastrous, absolutely disastrous and Welsh education is paying the price for that.’I think we should take those words seriously, and I hear about the changes in the curriculum. I just wonder whether those changes in the curriculum are as suggested by the Government—that the changes are going to turn around Welsh education performance—or, actually, whether they are part of a trend that we see in the deteriorating performance. I notice the comparisons made with the Scottish approach, where we’ve seen perhaps how that is now impacting on their PISA results, and this increasing divergence of both Wales and Scotland from the English performance in education, which has actually been on an improving trend in some areas, notably London—[Interruption.] I won’t take a further intervention—where they’ve had really very strong performance. I wonder, actually, if there is something for Wales to learn from that. We had from Plaid the comparison that to do that, we would be moving a stadium, and they would prefer to sack the manager. Actually, instead, why don’t we rejoin the league and actually have some accountability, by assessing what school performances are and publishing those data rather than hiding them?I had an exchange with the education Secretary on this, but she says that key stage 2 results should only be used to assist or look at how particular pupils are doing. She’s happy, to credit her, to use the PISA results to assess how the system may be changing, and tells teachers that they should take them seriously. The Welsh Government also publishes comparisons between local councils. Would it be wrong for those councils to look at, for example, the key stage 2 results of their primary schools in order to hold them to account and to try and drive improvement? And if it would be okay—[Interruption.] No, I will not. If it would be okay for councils to do that, why is it wrong for parents to do that? Why should these data be suppressed and only allowed for Ministers and Government officials and those in the bureaucracy, rather than actually putting it out there so that other people can judge, and so that when schools succeed, they know that it will be advertised, and so when they fail, they know it won’t be covered up? If we had that system, perhaps we would actually begin to turn these results around.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate today on a motion, in fairness, that is merely pointing out the obvious, really. Last week’s PISA results were deeply, deeply disappointing, and I think across the political spectrum in this Chamber, all Members—. David has made the point today about how unsatisfactory and upsetting, I would suggest, those results were, because we’ve had Minister after Minister coming to this Chamber from the Labour Party, who have been the Cabinet Secretaries or Ministers for the first 17 years of devolution, and in light of poor performances in the past, have given assurances to this Chamber. I merely repeat some of those assurances that were given, first by Leighton Andrews, who talked in 2010 of honesty, leadership and a new approach to accountability. And he set the goal for being in the top 20. That was ambitious, but at least it was a goal for the whole of the Government to work to. You can’t criticise anyone for being ambitious, and surely a Government sitting here in the first couple of months of its term should be setting out clear goals of what it wants to achieve when the next set of PISA results are taken in 2018. That is what our job as the opposition is now—to try and understand exactly where the Government are going, in light of the results that we had last week, with their education policy. We’ve seen Schools Challenge Cymru put to one side, which was a cornerstone of the previous Cabinet Secretary/Minister’s education challenge, shall we say, to schools, and yet that has been pushed to one side because it doesn’t fit the purpose of the new Cabinet Secretary—and that’s your role, obviously, to set out the education strategy of this Government. I do hope that the Cabinet Secretary, in responding to this debate, will shine more light on the road map forward now that will actually get our standards moving up the league table, because we are still behind where we were in 2010, with reading and science falling back, and maths—a welcome uplift, but it really had nowhere else to go, to be honest with you. If that’s what the Labour Party are celebrating, we are still behind in maths where we were in 2006. So, that is hardly a pat on the back, is it? In fairness to Huw Lewis, who was sitting at this front bench here, immediately in that chair there, he said:‘I expect to see the impact of our reforms reflected in the next set of results. They’re ambitious and I believe they will have a lasting, sustainable and positive effect on education in Wales.’Those were his words, in fairness, and we took him at his word and we believed that those reforms would make the—[Interruption.] I’ll take the intervention in a minute, Lee—difference that would see the school standards improving, and when we are benchmarked against the 0.5 million pupils across the world who take these tests in 72 countries, Wales would start to be doing better. I’ll take the intervention.

Lee Waters AC: I just want to make the point that we did improve in maths. I think it’s only fair you recognise that some progress has been made.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I’m sorry if you might not have been listening, but literally 10 seconds ago I made that very point, I did, and really it couldn’t have gone much lower, so if that’s what the Labour Party are celebrating about their strategy for education then poor you, because, as I did say in my remarks, we are still behind in maths where we were in 2006.So, I go back to the gambit that I put down in my opening remarks: this Government is at the start of its mandate. There is now definitely a new test coming in 2018, a new PISA set of tests, that will be taken by pupils across the length and breadth of Wales. Surely we will get some clarity over how the Government expect Welsh education to perform and the goals that the Cabinet Secretary will set for Welsh education.I do have to say—. And I regret that Llyr didn’t take the intervention because he talked about—you know, you don’t change the team, you don’t actually move the stadium: you sack the manager. Well, I have to tell you, Llyr, you’ve been keeping the manager in place here, you have. You keep voting time and time again to keep the manager in place.And it was—we celebrated, or commiserated, depending which way you want to look at it—the First Minister’s seventh anniversary, last Saturday, in office. Rightly, he pointed to education being a critical component about driving Wales forward and empowering communities the length and breadth of Wales. He used the words ‘the key to success’. He hasn’t even got the key, let alone knowing where to put the key in the door on this one, because the performance, time and—good God, I’ve got them all up—time and time again—[Laughter.] I’ll take Rhianon, if I may, then, because you’ve had a chance—.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. Will you acknowledge, when you say that maths results are worse, that you’re talking of OECD system processes, and will you acknowledge the hard work that teachers the length and breadth of Wales have undertaken to actually improve level 2-plus data on GCSEs? They have improved and they continue to improve, as A-levels are continuing to improve and you’re bringing the whole of that progress into disrepute. We have much to celebrate on an onward journey forward and the—[Interruption.] If you don’t mind—the OECD themselves—

This is an intervention and you’ve made your intervention—

Rhianon Passmore AC: And the OECD have acknowledged—

No. Andrew R. T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I do regret you using the word ‘disrepute’. This morning, I travelled to three schools across my region to celebrate Christmas with the kids there and the teachers and the excellence that’s going on in those schools, but you cannot—. [Interruption.] What are you saying about time? You cannot deny the lamentable record of Welsh education when it is benchmarked between 72 countries across the globe and 0.5 million—. And I read out the quotes—this isn’t opposition politicians who have set these benchmarks and set these goals. These are Leighton Andrews, the former Minister, and Huw Lewis, the former Minister—your colleagues themselves. So, it is Labour who have failed; it is not the profession, it is not the pupils. And as my education spokesman spoke earlier, when you look at the record of Labour in Government, you can go back to the source of the outset of devolution and Cabinet Secretary Jane Davidson and the goals that she set. [Interruption.] I’ve given an intervention—we’re on six minutes—so we heard what you had to say. Instead of pointing the finger at the opposition, I’d ask you to point the finger at your front bench and your First Minister and question him more about whether he’s got the solution for Welsh education. I hope that you will support the motion on the order paper that actually points to what is going on when Wales’s education is benchmarked internationally.

Neil McEvoy AC: I’ll declare an interest as somebody who has 25 years’ experience, in the classroom and outside of the classroom, in teaching. If we go right the way back to 1997, I think it was a really positive thing for the Labour Government to legislate to bring class sizes down to 30. But really, since 1999, I think what we have in Wales is a legacy of failure. Each education Minister clearly—clearly—has failed the children in Wales. I’m pretty unhappy with lots of discussion about targets so on and so forth, because quite often targets just give politicians ammunition to have debates like this, and you quote percentages and so on and so forth. I think what we need to do is take politics out of the classroom. What we need to do is ask ourselves: what do we want from our education system? What do we want? What is excellence? Let’s define what we mean by that. What are higher standards? What do we actually mean?For me, the rot really set in in education when the Conservatives introduced the market into the system. I’ll give you an example: awarding bodies competing—

Angela Burns AC: [Inaudible.]—Neil—

Neil McEvoy AC: I can give way, if you like.

There’s no request—. Yes, there is a request to give way.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Since devolution, it has been the Labour Party, with your party and the Liberals, who’ve run education here in Wales, and have a responsibility for these results. I’m not quite sure where you get the Conservatives from.

Neil McEvoy AC: Okay. I’m coming to that. The idea of the market—. For example—. I’ll give you an example of awarding bodies. You’ve got several awarding bodies all competing for business. What’s the natural thing to do? To make passes easier. And then, when you’re sat in a classroom with other teachers, you will choose the board where you’re more likely to get a pass. That’s the problem with the market. [Interruption.] I’m not going to give way anymore, now.What I would like to see is a commission for—[Interruption.]

Order. Can we just listen to the Member, please?

Neil McEvoy AC: What I would like to see is a commission for education, because, with the best will in the world, you’re not going to solve the problems of the education system over the next five years. So, what you need to do is sit down with people from every political party, teachers from all over Wales, all different sectors, and discuss what people want and where we want to go. In terms of being a teacher, it’s very simple, really: good buildings, resources and letting teachers teach. What we could have is a system of mentorship instead of punitive inspection. We need greater investment in special educational needs. Music, drama and physical education, they shouldn’t be cut, they should be invested in.I think we should be radical as well, in terms of cutting class sizes, because I’m actually a fan of cutting class sizes. What we should be looking at is not one or two; if we want real results, we should be looking at cutting class sizes to 20 or 15, like they have in Finland.Just one other thing in terms of education generally. If you look at the criminal youth system, one thing that magistrates and judges cannot do is give extra time for tuition. If you look at prisons, there are huge issues there as well with literacy. It all comes down to the bottom line of schools having actually failed people. If you look at 20 per cent of the people who are unable to read properly, unable to describe themselves properly in writing and say what they want, you know, it’s a real, real scandal.In finishing, I also want to flag up very briefly the scandal of supply teachers being paid poverty pay, while you have agencies like New Directions creaming off a massive percentage. What that actually does is take away millions and millions of pounds out of the educational system that should be invested in our children and in our schools. Diolch yn fawr, thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. We have had a full week since the PISA results were published, but that doesn’t make them any easier to digest. I’ll underline what I said last Tuesday. The results are bitterly disappointing; they are simply not good enough. We are not yet where any of us—parents, policymakers, teachers and pupils—would want to be. As I said, again, last Tuesday, nothing that anybody can say in the Chamber today can make me feel personally any more disappointed with those results.It’s perfectly natural to demand immediate changes following disappointing results such as the ones that we have had. I get that. I understand that. But I also know that it is the very last thing that pupils, parents and teachers need right now. I know that because, Mr McEvoy, I do indeed spend a great deal of my time talking to front-line teachers, headteachers, support staff, parents and governors. What they do need is someone to make the tough, but right, decisions. They need a Government that is strong enough to continue with and prioritise the reforms that will turn things around.The OECD’s PISA tests are respected around the world, and rightly so, regardless of what some may say in some other Chambers. Therefore, what must also be respected is the OECD’s analysis. Their 2014 report shone a spotlight on Wales’s system. It revealed our strengths, but it also didn’t pull any punches when it came to our weaknesses. Since that time, that report has guided Government reforms and has supported my identification of priorities, such as leadership. When taking the role as Cabinet Secretary, I invited them back to cast their independent analysis on my and our priorities and progress. That, Darren, is exactly the type of ‘pause and reflect’ that I think that you have talked about this afternoon. Their message to me was clear: we are on the right track and we must stick to our ambitious plans. I will heed that advice.I appreciate the comments that people have made about the fact that that report is not, at the moment, available. I expect to receive the full findings of the OECD’s report in February, and I will, of course, make that public—

Darren Millar rose—

Kirsty Williams AC: [Continues.]—not just to Members here in the Chamber, but to the wider world.

Darren Millar AC: I’m very grateful, Cabinet Secretary, for your confirming you will make that document available, but surely, before today’s debate, you could have at least made some of the summary of the findings available, which, clearly, are already in your hands.

Kirsty Williams AC: We do indeed have initial feedback from PISA, but I'm not in a position to publish that because it’s their report and they want to publish the full findings, and I will do that in February.With regard to the amendment, the quote in the amendment from the OECD is not a quote from the report. It is a quote from the statement issued by the OECD last week to the public. That’s the quote in the amendment today; that’s not a quote that is in any report that is yet to be published. It is in the statement that the OECD released last week on the publication of PISA.Wales’s national PISA report, written by the Institute of Education, sets out that our maths and reading results are stable, but stable is not good enough. Our maths scores, since the last round of PISA, saw the biggest increase in the UK and of the higher performing countries that scored above 450, only four countries saw a bigger increase in maths over this period. The OECD, in their statement, have said that this is encouraging. The Government has successfully implemented the numeracy framework. We have reformed our GCSEs so that they properly assess the skills that we want our young people to have and that our economy so desperately needs. This momentum must continue, which is why I have established a new national network of excellence for mathematics, creating a network that involves schools, universities and the regional consortia working together.The national literacy framework alongside the national reading and numeracy tests are the foundations for improving literacy and numeracy. These set high expectations, but I will continue to work with schools and the consortia to focus on reading, oracy and numeracy. I am particularly concerned that we reflect on reading and oracy. That has to happen before children actually go to school, which is why, across Government, we are working with parents of our very youngest children to help them develop the oracy skills that their children will need when they go into school at first.Our science scores were particularly disappointing and there is a great deal of work that must be done. During my time as Cabinet Secretary, we will up our game on science GCSEs, going forward with rigour. I make no apologies for exposing the cynical and far too comfortable focus on BTEC. This was an easy way out that did not properly equip our young people.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, will you give way?

Kirsty Williams AC: Yes, of course.

David Rees AC: I thank you for taking the intervention. Will you also focus science on the primary school sector, because if the enthusiasm that children get at that age to take it on to the next sector is important, we need to enthuse our teachers about science?

Kirsty Williams AC: David, you make a really good point, and in the new year, I will be making a further announcement on plans and funding that will target and promote teacher development and learning excellence in science and technology across all age groups.The PISA results showed Wales could and should be doing more to support more able and talented pupils. A new capped points score, a move away from BTEC and a new network of excellence for mathematics: all of these changes, and others that we are now introducing, will test our pupils to ensure that each one reaches their full potential.I welcome Plaid’s amendment that we should pursue reforms to the curriculum, initial teacher training education and teachers’ professional development. These are central to my plans. This is a forward-looking reformer’s contribution, unlike the other Plaid amendment, which, unfortunately, prefers to look backwards and attempts to airbrush out the One Wales Government.I also heard the comparison with Scotland’s reforms. Yes, we learn from Scotland and other systems, but we do not slavishly follow them. If there are lessons to be learned and pitfalls to be avoided, believe me, I will. For example, we are undertaking major curriculum reform alongside assessment reform. The one goes hand in hand with the other, and through our pioneer schools we’re putting the teaching profession at the centre of our reforms and supporting them with external expertise. We are setting clear expectations and responsibilities for each tier within our system.Initial teacher education is crucial to our ambitions, where teaching will, of course, be fit and ready for a reformed education system, and it should be a clear expectation for those who enter the profession that they are dedicated to their own professional lifelong learning and professional development. In a fast-changing world, how can anyone be the finished article of teaching? We will, again, look to see what we can do to implement a two-year and four-year qualification.There is no doubt in my mind, Presiding Officer, that leadership is essential and fundamental to high-performing education systems. That is why, last month, I announced the establishment of a national academy of educational leadership. It’s an important step forward and plugs a gap identified by the OECD report in 2014. Now, more than ever, in this period of reform, Wales needs strong leaders who are up for the challenge and leadership at all levels. Paul, you’re absolutely right: local education authorities and consortia must do their bit, as must governors. As you will be aware, we are currently out to consultation on reform to governance regimes—an area of reform that, unfortunately, has stalled in recent years.Llywydd, to summarise, the PISA results were not good enough, but I don’t have time for endless hand-wringing. There is work to be done instead. There are no quick fixes, but we must focus on leadership. We must focus on teaching excellence. Equity and well-being must be at the heart of all that we do. Previous PISA results have had to be described as a wake-up call. Wales is no longer in that place. The simple truth is that we know the reality of where we are. I know the reality of where we are. I also know where we are heading. Our national mission is one of education reform, and it is one that I and this Government will deliver.

I call on Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. David Rees said that education is a gift, but I think that education is actually a fundamental right. Because without a good education how can the child grow into an adult with a good education and with the capability to contribute to their own lives, to the lives of the people they know and love, and to the lives of our country? And how will our country grow and develop? And how will our culture be sustained if we don’t have a well-educated population? So, I say that education is a right.These PISA results have once again reminded us that we are not where we need to be. Neil McEvoy, I would like to say to you that ‘The Learning Country’—that’s where it all started to go wrong. Because if you take away absolutely every single benchmark and standard assessment, then you are casting teachers adrift in a desert, in the dark, with no stars, no sextant, no compass, and no wonder that when the daylight comes everyone is in a very different place. That’s what started to go wrong.I believe that we have an opportunity to put that right. I believe that we need inspirational leaders. We need outstanding teachers, we need decent facilities, and we need an engaged and happy student body. We need a curriculum that is fit for today—a curriculum that isn’t wedded to the 1950s, the 1960s, the 1970s or the 1980s, but actually suits the 10-year-olds, the 14-year-olds and the 16-year-olds of today. So, I have no problem with the fact that we've looked at Donaldson—there is much to commend it—but I think that Darren Millar's point about pause and reflect is very key, because Scotland are sliding, and some of the ones who've always done well—Sweden, other countries—are not doing so well. We need to look, we need to benchmark. So, inspirational leaders, excellent teachers—and, let's be clear, not all of our teachers are excellent. A lot of them are, but the ones who aren't are dragging the other ones down and making their jobs so difficult. We need continuous professional development, schools that children enjoy going to, an educational system that grabs their attention and holds it for their entire school journey, and we need to be able to benchmark and assess. Poland can do it; we can do it. If anybody can do it, this country of ours can surely, surely improve our education system.Donaldson could well be the way forward, but, you know, if you're on a dark road at night and you know it's the way forward, but you suddenly glimpse a sign that says there could be a cliff ahead, the wise person just pauses and checks that that way is ahead. We do not want a repeat of ‘The Learning Country’. We do not want to lose this opportunity. Why? Because the saddest thing is a child or a young person who leaves school at 16 and they do not have enough qualifications to go and get the job that they want to do, they cannot get a job that's good enough for them to have a happy family life, to have their own kids, to get their own house, to do all the things that we all want to do—go on holidays, the rest of it. And that comes down to the fact that they do not have a good education.Presiding Officer, I would also just like to say one more comment. We have to remember that just under a quarter of our children, Minister, have additional learning needs. No wonder. No wonder. We have to bring them into the fold. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Urgent Question: Infrastructure Investment Plan

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted a third urgent question under Standing Order 12.66, and, before I ask Adam Price to ask the question, I want to thank the Deputy Presiding Officer for responding comprehensively to the point of order earlier this afternoon. I would only add that it’s fair to say that I’m always going to be minded to accept urgent questions when I believe Members deserve an opportunity to scrutinise a Government announcement of major public importance. As the Deputy Presiding Officer stated, the urgency of that scrutiny can be heightened by the approach of recess. It’s possible that Members may be aware that the Business Committee will be looking at our procedures for questions on both urgent and topical issues in the new year, and I will be very eager to hear the opinions of the Members on the reforms that we’ll need to our procedures.I now call on Adam brys—[Laughter.]—Adam Price to ask his urgent question.

Adam Price AC: Thank you kindly, Presiding Officer. At least, I think so.

Adam Price AC: Will the Minister provide further details of the multibillion pound infrastructure investment plan announced today? EAQ(5)0100(EI)

Julie James AC: This morning, at a business breakfast event at Cardiff Airport, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure made a speech detailing progress with plans for infrastructure investment over the next five years. This investment, which includes major improvements to the M4, A55, A40 and A494, the delivery of a south Wales metro, the development of a north Wales metro, a new rail franchise, a ports development fund, the development of a third Menai crossing, improved, more sustainable bus services, and more, will be the largest Wales has seen in a generation.

Adam Price AC: I'm grateful to the Deputy Minister for standing in the breach here and answering this urgent question, that, today, the Government did announce what it said was the biggest investment in infrastructure since devolution, and yet, in a democracy, we would have expected that statement, that major claim, to be made in a parliament and not in an airport at a business breakfast. It's an extreme discourtesy to every one of the people that elected us. We're about to rename this place; maybe we should call ourselves a vacuum chamber, because of the absence of scrutiny that is increasingly characterising the way the Government is treating us.As we heard in terms—[Interruption.] As we heard about the invisible PISA report earlier, it’s just not acceptable. I tried to find the detail, I tried to investigate the substance behind the soundbite, and there is no detail. We’ve had before this Government producing plans without money—now, we have money without a plan. So, can I ask the Deputy Minister—[Interruption.] Can I ask the Deputy Minister: what is the specific figure? What’s the specific figure in terms of the infrastructure investment? Can she say what is the status of the national transport financial plan? Is that now redundant or can we expect a new revised plan immediately? What’s the status of the Wales infrastructure investment plan, last updated in June 2015? Is that now redundant and when can we expect a new plan from the Minister? Can we have a proper democracy where we have real scrutiny? Otherwise, this place will become redundant as well.

Julie James AC: Well, Presiding Officer, anybody would think it was towards the end of term. [Interruption.] And, indeed, because it was—[Interruption.] And, because it is towards the end of term, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure this morning made a speech to an audience of business and transport stakeholders in Wales in which he detailed a number of announcements that have been made in this Chamber in statements and in plans across this term. He did that as an end-of-term statement, and I can detail them to you again.We have published our proposals for a national infrastructure commission for Wales, which is now out for public consultation. We launched a public consultation on the Welsh transport planning and appraisal guidance 2017; that is out for public consultation. The national transport finance plan, as Adam Price said, sets out an ambitious five-year rolling programme for transport projects the length and breadth of Wales. In my answer to his original question, I detailed them. I’m happy to do so again, if he wishes me to. These include works to improve safety and congestion on the A55, A494 and A548, for example, and investment of over £200 million in the Deeside corridor, which will be one of the most significant since devolution and will hugely boost the economy and sustainability of transport in north Wales. We’ve announced already the project for the A40 Llanddewi Velfrey to Penblewin improvement project. The preferred bidder will be announced in January, which is already a matter in front of the Assembly. The Cabinet Secretary was detailing all of the good work—[Interruption.] The Cabinet Secretary was detailing all—[Interruption.] The Cabinet Secretary was detailing—

Let’s hear the answer. Thank you, Minister.

Julie James AC: [Continues.]—all of the good work that the Government has put in place to ensure that we have a sustainable and economically beneficial transport and infrastructure system for Wales, as he was right to do.

Russell George AC: Can I fully endorse the views of Adam Price? It is a disgrace that the Cabinet Secretary could not be here today to bring to this Chamber what he delivered in his speech this morning. I’m not—[Interruption.] I’m not privy to that speech this morning, but what I would say to the Minister is: I’ve got two questions for you today—[Interruption.] I’m not privy to the speech that he gave this morning.

I can’t hear the question, neither can the Minister. Can you please calm down? Russell George.

Russell George AC: The two specific questions I have, Minister, are: can I ask you, Minister, to outline what infrastructure projects will be designated for rural Wales, and, secondly, what specific projects the Cabinet Secretary will be bringing forward to deliver the sustainable bus network service that he has committed to? It is disappointing that the Cabinet Secretary is not here himself or delivered a statement today in order that Assembly Members could properly question him today.

Julie James AC: The Cabinet Secretary is away on urgent business in London, protecting jobs and services in Wales. He could not possibly have anticipated the need to be here to answer an urgent question on what was an end-of-term speech in Cardiff Airport.However, I’m quite happy to read, once again, the series of projects that he reviewed during his speech. The investment includes major improvements to the M4, A55, A40, A494, the delivery of a south Wales metro, the development of a north Wales metro, a new rail franchise, a ports development fund, the development of a third Menai crossing, improved and more sustainable bus services, and will be the largest Wales has seen in a generation. That was the import of his speech. I am currently arranging for the speech to be put on the website; it only requires translation to be put there.

Darren Millar AC: I was a little alarmed as well to see this announcement being made this morning not in this place but in another Government-owned building down the road. Can I ask you—[Interruption.] Can I ask you, Minister, with specific reference to the investment that has been announced in north Wales, you’ve made a suggestion that it’s a simple reheat and microwaving of previous investment that has been announced in this Chamber and through this house—I’m not aware of the significant investment that you’ve referred to in respect of safety and congestion on the A55? Can you tell us whether that will include adding a hard shoulder to those parts of the A55 that do not currently have one, whether it will address the significant problems that we’ve had on a perennial basis with flooding along the A55, and whether those particular parts of the A55 where there is congestion on a daily basis, not just in the Deeside area, but elsewhere, will also be addressed as a result of this investment?

Julie James AC: The work detailed for the A55 in north Wales is to improve both safety and congestion. The Cabinet Secretary’s speech this morning did not include details of the sort that are now being asked for, but I’m sure he’d be happy to write to you on the subject.On the subject of it being in a Government-owned building, I feel obliged, Presiding Officer, to say that the first thing I did as a young lawyer when I came to Wales was the forced sale of Cardiff Airport out of the public sector because of how much money it was making, and I was delighted to be amongst the Government Ministers of a Government who took it back into the public sector when the private sector failed.

Andrew RT Davies AC: [Inaudible.] I’d like to ask the Deputy Minister, given the indignation that has been shown by Adam Price today—politicians in this Chamber and the public, in fairness, would be surprised, because we have been told right the way through this parliamentary term that Plaid Cymru and the Government are working hand in glove to develop these infrastructure projects, and, indeed, the infrastructure commission was meant to be coming forward. It does seem that there seems to be little or no dialogue going on on these projects, or is there no substance at all behind what Ken Skates announced today in Cardiff Airport, and it is merely just another press release that more and more people are going to start to see through? Can you answer—? [Interruption.] Well, no, it’s not a speech, it’s asking—[Interruption.] It is asking—[Interruption.] It is asking—[Interruption.] It is asking—[Interruption.] It is asking the Deputy Minister to confirm how Government is functioning, is working, and looking to deliver these projects, especially when we are told week after week that there are these cross-party groups working within Government that clearly do not seem to be working and, ultimately, we’re living on spin.

Julie James AC: I’d be delighted to do that. As I said—and I’ve said it several times now, but I’m happy to say it again—this morning, at a business breakfast event for transport and business stakeholders, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure made a speech detailing progress on plans for infrastructure investment that have been brought properly in front of this Assembly and which the Assembly has to scrutinise. Presiding Officer, I will not test your patience by reading out the very significant investment projects—[Interruption.]

Thank you, Minister, for not testing my patience, although the last 10 minutes probably have. I would say that I think that the lesson from the last 10 minutes is, if Government policies are to be packaged as announcements, then they are best made here to this Chamber so that we are all able to scrutinise and hear those statements—[Interruption.] Calm down.This will be our last voting session before Christmas and of 2016. Can I wish you all a happy Christmas? Even after that.Nadolig llawen i chi gyd. Ac felly, oni bai bod tri Aelod yn dymuno imi ganu’r gloch, rydw i’n symud yn syth i’r cyfnod pleidleisio.

10. 7. Voting Time

The vote, therefore, on the Welsh Conservatives’ debate, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. For 16, no abstentions, 34 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 16, Against 34, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6188.Click to see vote results

I therefore call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 26 against, and therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 23, Against 26, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6188.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 24 against, and therefore the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 26, Against 24, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 2 to motion NDM6188.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. For 50, no abstentions, none against, and therefore amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 50, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 3 to motion NDM6188.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6188 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes Wales’ performance in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s 2015 Programme for International Student Assessment, which were published on the 6th December 2016.2. Regrets that scores in reading, maths and science were lower in 2015 than in 2006.3. Notes the OECD’s reflections following its return visit to review the Welsh education system that many things are in place now that are putting Wales on a more promising track.4. Recognises that to drive up standards there must be an emphasis on leadership,teaching excellence, equity and wellbeing for learners.5. Urges the Welsh Government to pursue reforms to the curriculum, initial teacher education and teachers’ professional development.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For 44, six abstentions, none against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6188 as amended agreed: For 44, Against 0, Abstain 6.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6188 as amended.Click to see vote results

If I could ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly so that we can move on to our next item, which is the short debate.

11. 8. Short Debate: Why We Need an Animal Abuse Register for Wales

I call on Bethan Jenkins to speak on the topic she has chosen.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch. Before I begin today, I’d like to pay a particular tribute to the three tireless campaigners whose passion and commitment have driven this issue I’m going to speak about here today, and who at the very least deserve a full and fair hearing for this forward-thinking proposal. The first is my constituent Jenna Satterley, who took a recent tragedy, a burglary at the Ty-Nant sanctuary in Cymmer in my region in July, when three cats were horribly mutilated and killed, and used it to give this positive idea fresh impetus. The other two are Maxine and Brian Berry of the Justice for Chunky campaign. Like Rocky’s law, it was an act of horrific cruelty against a dog for this couple to begin their campaign to introduce animal abuse registers in the UK. Sadly, I don’t think I have enough time to go into their meticulous work that lays out the legislative landscape, but I’m sure they would be happy for me to share what we’ve done and what they’ve done with the Welsh Government. This is a debate that I wish we weren’t having here today. We know that in an ideal society, there would be no such thing as animal cruelty. And for the overwhelming majority of us, an act of senseless spite against an animal is something that revolts us, and is something that we simply cannot comprehend, but it does exist. Only this month, a kitten not more than a few weeks old was beaten to death with a rolling pin and thrown in a food disposal unit by kitchen staff at a hotel in Betws-y-Coed. It took an outcry on social media and, presumably, a threat to business for the management to apologise and sack those responsible. Meanwhile, dogs remain the most abused animals in Wales. In July, the RSPCA had to put down a German Shepherd named Sindy after she was left tied to a railing in Flintshire with injuries to her legs and a note saying, ‘My owner cannot cope.’ So, regardless of how most of us feel about such incidents, it’s savagery and its regularity behoves us to find ways to eradicate animal abuse, for that should be our aim—the total eradication of animal cruelty.What I’m proposing today is within competence. It has also been established and tested elsewhere, although it would be a first for the UK, and it has potential benefits outside of animal welfare and outside of what this Assembly does. At the end of the day, if we are able to support law enforcement, then we should, even if we don’t have the powers. That isn’t a reason to refuse this proposal.In proposing an animal abuse register for Wales it is, as I said, not necessary to reinvent the wheel. We already have working models in the United States. While this isn’t a Welsh solution, because it sits in a different legal framework, it provides the basis for building a register while exploring the necessary changes to legislation—if legislation is required—and identifies potential issues. So, as I said, at present there is no animal abuse register in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The issue of establishing an animal register in England has recently been examined by a Westminster committee as part of an inquiry into animal welfare of domestic pets. This inquiry recommended the UK Government examine the potential for the establishment of an animal abuse register. This follows on form a 2012 Assembly petition that called for a Welsh animal offenders register. The Petitions Committee explored a number of issues and felt at the time that it would not be practical. However, events have moved on sufficiently for this idea to be revisited. We have them established elsewhere and we can see that they work.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Bethan Sayed AC: There are numerous examples of animal abuse registers in the US, where two different models are used. The first is an open register, such as in Tennessee, when information on the convicted individual is published online including their photograph, name, address and date of birth. The other is a private register, such as in New York City, which is only available to certain organisations, such as animal shelters and those who sell animals. The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation operates a number of registers: a sex offender register, a drug offender register, an abuse register and an animal abuse register. This animal abuse register is operated state-wide under a Tennessee state law, the animal abuse registration Act. It is the first publicly accessible register in the United States. Since January this year, it has posted the following information: the offender’s name, address, date of birth and type of offence. It does not include social security number, drivers’ licence number or any other identification number. The information is held on the register for two years for a first offence, and this increases to five years for a second offence. A ‘Huffington Post’ article noted that by hosting the register on its existing website, the TBI incurred no significant cost with the introduction of this legislation.There are open registers in Albany county and Orange county, both in New York state. The online open register in Albany county is maintained by an animal shelter, the Mohawk Hudson Humane Society, as a service to the public. As such, there is no cost to the taxpayer. Anyone who is convicted of animal cruelty in the county of Albany after January 2012 is required to submit information to the Albany county sheriff’s department, and update it annually. That information is then passed to the shelter. Its website says: ‘Anyone selling, giving away or adopting an animal to another person in Albany…must check the registry prior to any change in ownership. Giving, selling or adopting an animal to a person on the registry is a violation of county law.’The Orange county animal abuse register was created in 2015 by an Act of Orange county legislature, known as Rocky’s law, after a dog had to be put down after being left out in the snow without food and water for five weeks while his owner went on holiday. This is maintained by the sheriff’s office, and anyone convicted of animal cruelty who resides in that county is required to submit their information to the Orange county sheriff’s office and this is then put online. They’re also charged a fee of $125. The law requires that anyone transferring ownership of an animal for payment or otherwise must check the Orange County animal abuse registry prior to any change in ownership. Giving, selling or allowing adoption of an animal to a person in this area is a violation of county law.In New York, the Animal Abuse Registration Act 2014 requires anyone living in New York City who is convicted of an animal abuse crime to register with the city health department, from where they will be added to the NYC animal abuse registry. The information it holds is considerably more than what is required for the Tennessee open register, including a description of the crime, drivers’ license, height, weight, ethnicity and eye colour of that person. However, the registry is only accessible by those organisations named under the Act. The legislation sets out which types of animal-related businesses are legally required to check it and refuse to sell or transfer ownership of an animal to anyone listed in the registry. This include pet shops, animal shelters and vets in New York.Over 20 Bills establishing animal abuse registers have been introduced across America, including Illinois, Maryland, Rhode Island and California. In Colorado, a Bill for an open register was rejected on the grounds of cost. However, having taken through legislation myself, cost in itself is not reason enough to deter its progress; it has to have purpose. Cost only becomes an issue when that purpose cannot be established, or if there’s a lack of will.I see an animal abuse register for Wales as having two purposes. The first is to demonstrate to offenders and would-be offenders that there’s going to be another consequence to their criminal behaviour; that we begin to move, as a society, towards making it abundantly clear that abuse of animals is beyond the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, in the same way as various forms of prejudice are considered far more unacceptable than they were years ago.Of course, we cannot say that prejudice has been completely eradicated, but it is moving in the right way. And that is the point here. At the moment, animal abusers seem more likely to be shamed and censured on social media than they are through legal remedy. We need a deterrent. The House of Commons inquiry also identified another issue concerning animal abuse: that it is very difficult to track those who’ve been banned from keeping animals. An accessible register could play an important role in protecting animals and prevent abusers from accessing animals, it found. And it looked to recommending further work on the issue.I did say earlier that there is another dimension to this debate. The Links Group, an organisation that includes the NSPCC, the RSPCA and the Women’s Aid Federation of England, produced work that said that there is increased research and clinical evidence that suggests that there are sometimes links between the abuse of children, vulnerable adults and animals, and that‘a better understanding of these links can help to protect victims, both human and animal, and promote their welfare.’It found that if a child is cruel to animals, this may be an indicator that serious neglect and abuse had been inflicted on that child. While recent research in the UK suggests that animal abuse by children is quite widespread, in a minority of more extreme cases, it appears to be associated with abuse of children, or subsequent abusive behaviour by the child.Where serious animal abuse has occurred in a household, there may be an increased likelihood that some other form of family violence is occurring, and that any children present may also be at an increased risk of abuse. Acts of animal abuse may, in some circumstances, be to coerce, control and intimidate women and children to remain in or be silent about their abusive situation. The threat or actual abuse of a pet can prevent women leaving situations of domestic violence. Sustained childhood cruelty to animals has been linked to an increased likelihood of violent offending behaviour against humans in adulthood. If a child exhibits extreme aggressive or sexualised behaviour towards animals, this may, in some cases, be associated with later abuse of other children or vulnerable adults, unless the behaviour is recognised and treated.There is no doubt that these last two points are important where law enforcement is concerned. For some time, it has been known that many serial killers and other serious criminals began their journey with animal abuse. In fact, the FBI in America uses it as part of criminal profiling. I cannot, for one moment, think that any police force in Wales would not find such a register of use to them in detecting crime, and I would argue that all law enforcement agencies should be given access to such a register.One of the concerns surrounding such a register is how we would define abuse, and decide who should go on it and who shouldn’t. For me, it seems quite simple. If someone has been convicted—not accused, convicted—of animal cruelty, then, their name should go on that register. It would be for existing law, which does have its weaknesses, in my opinion, to ascertain the guilt or otherwise of those accused of such crimes.Before tabling this debate, I took advice and made sure that it was within our competence entirely. As you know, this Assembly has powers to legislate on matters of animal welfare, but initially, I had wondered whether we were in that grey area slot, such as we saw with the agricultural wages Order or the UK Government’s trade union Bill, where no-one was quite sure where the line of competency lay. But it is a great deal more straightforward than that, because there is no involvement in the criminal justice system, and it would need to be convicted before anyone entered into the register. So establishing such a register does not fall outside of our competency.In June this year—while I don’t always agree with the DUP—the Northern Ireland Assembly supported a call from the DUP to establish an accessible register of those convicted of animal cruelty offences. At the time, the Minister said that he was interested in the idea, because although the police already has a list of such people, there was an argument for making it available to other relevant organisations.I’d also like to thank, finally, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs for responding in a similarly positive way to my question on 12 October about animal abuse registers here. The Cabinet Secretary said, and I quote,‘I haven’t considered introducing legislation. We are looking at the different codes of practice we have for different animals, and certainly it’s something that I’ve asked the chief veterinary officer and officials to monitor. But I’m very happy to look at the point you raised; I think that’s a very interesting point about, as you say, perpetrators with animals.’So, I’m very much looking forward to what the Welsh Government has to say on this matter and to seek to move forward on this debate. It won’t surprise you that I’ve had a wealth of interest from across the world, actually, in this debate here today. I think people have a very close and important relationship with their pets, be it because it keeps them company if they feel isolated, or it’s part of a family environment. It’s something that we then feel is an extension of how we treat other people in our lives also in relation to how, then, we treat animals. So, I would like to thank everybody who’s given me their experiences via e-mail from all the different countries that have contacted me. I hope that Wales can be first in putting forward this register in the UK. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, and I call the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to reply to the debate, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m really pleased that you tabled this topic, Bethan, for your short debate today. As you say, you did raise it with me in an oral question back in October and, just last week, I answered a written question that was submitted by Paul Davies, who is in the Chamber. I said to both of you that it wasn’t something that I’d ever considered, but, since that time, I have asked officials to look at it, and I’ll say a bit more about the sort of advice and discussions that we’re having.Because I’d never thought about it previously from an animal health and welfare perspective, but, listening to Bethan talking about the levels of animal cruelty, really, it’s a salutary lesson. I think the way we treat our animals really says a lot about the sort of society we are. So, it’s very sad to hear those cases that you talked about at the beginning of your debate.I absolutely also understand the comments that Bethan made about how animal abusers are often connected to other forms of abuse. Unfortunately, there are too many examples where abuse was carried out on an animal and then followed up with abuse on another family member or another individual. I actually had a case in my own advice surgery of a woman who would not leave the perpetrator of domestic abuse because of her dog. So, it’s absolutely something that we should be very aware of.I’m also aware of the RSPCA’s action on its pet retreat and, equally, I’m aware of the wide concerns that I know have been expressed right across the UK on this issue, not just Wales, by a number of organisations. It is a very complex issue—you’re right, we do have the competence, and I will continue to give very serious consideration to the whole topic and in connection, particularly, with the responsible ownership of an animal. So, the Welsh Government commissioned a review on responsible dog ownership, and many of the outcomes are applicable across all animal ownership. I also think I need to consider this topic with my Cabinet colleagues, because the potential scope of these issues—whilst you might think they just initially fall into my portfolio, I think there are implications outside my portfolio.Any such system, I think, should have a national approach for it to be effective and comprehensive, and it’s again something that I would like to discuss with ministerial colleagues from across the UK. There have been previous discussions in the UK Government public protection unit, which is responsible for the Disclosure and Barring Service, which was formerly the Criminal Records Bureau, about using existing systems, because I think we need to make sure that we use any existing databases now in a much more improved way, through better connectivity and information sharing. So, again, I’ve asked officials to pursue enquiries with the appropriate UK Government department now.There are also questions that I think we would need to ask if we were developing such a policy: data protection, whether having such an identification process is a good idea; is it practicable and what would a register achieve by way of animal welfare that the current arrangements don’t achieve? You mentioned, Bethan, police forces and that it would be useful for them. I think local authorities also, and there are probably other aspects of the public sector.In Wales, we believe that prevention is better than cure. That’s the reason why we place such emphasis on animal welfare and the importance of responsible ownership and the role of veterinary practitioners. I’m meeting with the British Veterinary Association next month, and I’m going to discuss this topic with them, and their comprehensive guidance for veterinary teams regarding ‘Recognising abuse in animals and humans’, which they published last January.So, we’re going to continue to develop our thinking on the matters that have been raised by Bethan today. We’ll do that as we make progress on our work on responsible animal ownership also. We do expect the highest standards of animal welfare for all protected animals to be in place here in Wales. We’ve got a duty of care. That’s embedded in the Animal Welfare Act, which was commenced nearly 10 years ago. But I think that the topic that you’ve raised again today, Bethan, does need further serious consideration. I’d be very happy to work with you on it. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. And that just brings me to say to everybody left—just to offer my season’s greetings to you all, and we hope that we all return in the new year. That brings today’s proceedings—in fact, this year’s proceedings—to a close. There we go. Thank you very much.

The meeting ended at 18:06.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Sian Gwenllian: Will the Minister provide an update on flood prevention plans in Arfon?

Lesley Griffiths: Over the past two years, we have invested £1.6 million in flood risk management in Arfon.  This includes work at Bontnewydd and the recently completed Talybont scheme, which reduces risk to the village and A55. It is for the local authority or NRW to bring forward future schemes.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to assist the agricultural industry in South Wales Central?

Lesley Griffiths: The Welsh Government is working to support the agricultural industry to become more profitable, sustainable, resilient, and professionally managed. Farmers in South Wales Central benefit from the same support as is on offer to all other farmers in Wales, including measures through the rural development programme.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What assessment has the Minister made of the Living Planet Report 2016?

Lesley Griffiths: The living planet report shows the devastating impacts humans are having on wildlife and the natural world. It also shows how we can solve these problems. Our groundbreaking environment and well-being of future generations Acts are exemplars in implementing the international commitments to sustainable development and biodiversity.

Dawn Bowden: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's commitment to clean renewable energy?

Lesley Griffiths: I set out the Welsh Government’s priorities on energy in my statement of 6 December. I described the co-ordinated and coherent approach to energy, which will deliver a prosperous and secure low-carbon Wales.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

David Rees: Will the Minister provide details of the Welsh Government's actions to tackle child poverty in Aberavon?

Carl Sargeant: Being in employment provides the most effective route out of poverty. Investment in the early years is also critical. In Neath Port Talbot, Communities for Work and PaCE support parents to enter sustainable employment, while programmes such as Flying Start are supporting children to have the best start in life.

Steffan Lewis: Will the Minister make a statement on the tackling poverty initiatives within his portfolio?

Carl Sargeant: Initiatives within my portfolio that contribute to tackling poverty include childcare, affordable housing, financial and digital inclusion, and employability programmes such as Lift and Communities for Work. To further support our most disadvantaged communities in Wales, I am consulting on a new approach to building resilient communities.

Rhianon Passmore: Will the Minister provide an update on the support the Welsh Government is giving to former members of the armed forces community?

Carl Sargeant: Our refreshed package of support, which includes initiatives such as Veterans’ NHS Wales and the housing referral pathway, set out Welsh Government’s policies and actions to support former members of the armed forces community in Wales.

Jayne Bryant: Will the Minister outline how the Welsh Government supports voluntary organisations tackling homelessness?

Carl Sargeant: This financial year, we are providing £4,200,000 to third sector organisations, which include voluntary organisations, through our homelessness prevention programme. It supports a wider range of work, including advice, outreach and family mediation. Support is also provided through our Supporting People programme via local authorities.

David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement on the alternative housing projection contained in the Holmans Report?

Carl Sargeant: The alternative projection of future housing need made by the late Professor Alan Holmans in 2015 does not take into account changes in household size and type as recorded by the 2011 census. These changes do inform the principal projection made in the report. It is important to note the assumptions on which all such projections are based.